Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[a-dev]

Sorry Khev, ajp just won me right back. What a post!

 

[ironwez20]

I always thought these 2 pieces of TFA concept art were a huge missed opportunity:


View attachment 528676View attachment 528677

The art book for tfa shows much more character and design than the movies. The end product was a total lack of imagination but the art book showed lots of promise and great design. It’s a shame they choose dull uninspiring looks and catered to the OT crowed

 

[a-dev]

You can trace everything Vader would've been feeling to the first appearance of the Emperor in ESB. Palpatine wanted Luke killed. It was Vader who suggested that Luke be converted instead, and thereby spared. By the time Vader became familiar with Bespin, his intention was still to freeze/preserve Luke to personally deliver to the Emperor. When their duel starts, Vader follows through exactly with that intention in a fashion that he deemed "all too easy." It wasn't until Luke showed much more potential that I think Vader's wheels started turning on a new ambition for his son. Instead of "he will join us, or die" now Vader was recognizing a new option. Something more like "join *me*" (and overthrow Palpatine).

Yeah, when Luke proves to be more skilled than Vader thought a fatherly pride takes over. He starts to think ''y'know what, this is my son, I want to know him, I want to teach him, and maybe I don't want to subject him to Palpatine''

I know that's not the part that was in doubt in this discussion, I just really liked what you said here.

Makes me ponder an interesting hypothetical - what if Luke had agreed to learn the dark side and not jumped to his could-have-been demise there on Cloud City? What if he came in off that gantry and went with Vader? With Vader's then line of thinking is it possible he would have immediately gone rogue, defied the Emperor and stole the Executor and as much of the Imperial Fleet as he could control?

 

[Khev]

It's not about "turning" as much as it is about a conflict within him getting stronger. But I want to start with that final scene on the Executor because I think it was deliberately designed to contrast with how he dealt with every prior instance of anger with his Imperial subordinates. Like JAWS just posted, I just cant see it as a display of anger.

When Vader is angry, he doesn't do double-takes and put his hands behind his back to stride off casually. There's no story purpose to having Vader react that way if it's supposed to give the audience an impression that Vader was seething. From how he handled Captain Antilles, to Motti's mocking, to the incompetence of Ozzel and Needa... Vader's expressions of anger were well established. His demeanor at the end of ESB doesn't convey anything remotely related to that, IMO.

As you alluded to in your post, Anakin's redemption was going to be part of the ultimate resolution to the saga at every stage of writing ROTJ. That includes the planning stages when ESB was being filmed. The redemption can't happen without some type of inner conflict, and seeds of that would need to be planted. This doesn't mean that such an inner conflict needs to be 50/50 between Vader's "Sith" side and Anakin's "Jedi" side. It could be something closer to 95/5. But I believe the seeds of whatever conflict existed were purposely illustrated in that final ESB Vader scene to build upon later.

And yeah, I obviously prefer a seamless flow, and prefer to think that Luke was right in sensing the conflict in Vader before ever turning himself in on Endor. But I honestly believe elements of ESB were absolutely setup for the sequel(s). And Vader's budding inner conflict was one of those.

You can trace everything Vader would've been feeling to the first appearance of the Emperor in ESB. Palpatine wanted Luke killed. It was Vader who suggested that Luke be converted instead, and thereby spared. By the time Vader became familiar with Bespin, his intention was still to freeze/preserve Luke to personally deliver to the Emperor. When their duel starts, Vader follows through exactly with that intention in a fashion that he deemed "all too easy." It wasn't until Luke showed much more potential that I think Vader's wheels started turning on a new ambition for his son. Instead of "he will join us, or die" now Vader was recognizing a new option. Something more like "join *me*" (and overthrow Palpatine).

The longer that duel went on, and the longer Vader had to evaluate Luke, the more he had to deal with the fact that this was his son. Prior to that, Vader was very willing to either turn Luke over to the Emperor or kill him. There was enough disconnect. But on that gantry, after having violently dismembered his son, I think "Don't make me destroy you" had more than one layer to it.

Vader ended up reaching out to Luke to join him in defeating the Emperor. Luke wasn't going to do that, and it became abundantly clear. So, the options returned to 1.) have the Emperor convert Luke, or 2.) have Luke die. The inner conflict would obviously lead to preferring one of those options over the other.

When Palpatine made it clear at the end of ROTJ that turning Luke to the dark side was no longer on the table, Vader had to watch his son being killed. And that was always the line he couldn't cross, and therefore the seed of inner conflict that started when Luke earned Vader's respect as the Bespin duel went on. And I choose to believe that it was more than just respect that Vader discovered himself feeling for Luke. That's why Vader connected with Luke via the Force and their final ESB exchange started: "Luke." "Father!" "Son... come with me."

Great post ajp, but I don't think anything you state above contradicts my interpretation of the events save for what Vader was thinking and feeling under his helmet in that last scene on the Executor. Obviously we have no choice but to speculate due to him not saying anything and us not being able to see his expression but I still think that your interpretation requires more recontextualization based on ROTJ Vader than considering his arc within the context of ESB.

No he didn't speak when the Falcon escaped but he did speak shortly before, and he was all business and 100% acting in the same vein as he had previously with Piett. "Did your men deactivate the hyperdrive on the Millennium Falcon...good, prepare a boarding party and set your weapons for stun," was delivered with the same authoritative cadence of all his previous commands, and I didn't and still don't see any reason why his response to failure to carry out said commands would have been any different than before. And that was with anger. Potentially destructive anger.

No he didn't kill anyone, but he doesn't always kill when a subordinate lets him down "Don't fail me again...admiral" but it is definitely a possibility. And I still think that the double take and quiet departure was because he was so damn mad that he HAD to just bury it and immediately leave the bridge before he killed EVERYBODY, lol. I know the prevailing opinion was that he was greatly softened in that moment but I'll just have to be in the minority on this one and respectfully disagree.

I do think that yes he was on a path to redemption even in ESB prior to those final moments, but I still think that that wasn't mutually exclusive with him seething like never before in that particular moment. Even ROTJ itself showed us that that wasn't some major turning point in how he handled failure as evidenced by the very first scene of that movie. "I hope so commander for your sake, the Emperor is not as forgiving as I am..." I think we can all agree that Vader wasn't being matter of fact about his actual forgiving nature, no he was being sarcastic knowing full well how terrifying the notion to Jerjerrod would be that there could be a being who was even *less* forgiving than he. I take that as further evidence that the end of ESB hadn't turned him into a tolerant commander who accepted failure any more than he previously had based on Jerjerrod's response.

That's how I see it anyway, I understand if you disagree and your takes are fun to read either way.

 

[a-dev]

I do think that yes he was on a path to redemption even in ESB prior to those final moments, but I still think that that wasn't mutually exclusive with him seething like never before in that particular moment. Even ROTJ itself showed us that that wasn't some major turning point in how he handled failure as evidenced by the very first scene of that movie. "I hope so commander for your sake, the Emperor is not as forgiving as I am..." I think we can all agree that Vader wasn't being matter of fact about his actual forgiving nature, no he was being sarcastic knowing full well how terrifying the notion to Jerjerrod would be that there could be a being who was even *less* forgiving than he. I take that as further evidence that the end of ESB hadn't turned him into a tolerant commander who accepted failure any more than he previously had based on Jerjerrod's response.

Hmmm, I think it could be said that he was just using his own reputation to motivate Jerjerrod. It's not necessarily evidence that he has continued to force choke his officers to death in the time since ESB. All Jerjerrod needs to know is that Vader has done that in the past.

That said I also don't think the change in Vader after meeting Luke would have been so strong that he would be immediately above force choking a subordinate who pissed him off.

 

[Khev]

That said I also don't think the change in Vader after meeting Luke would have been so strong that he would be immediately above force choking a subordinate who pissed him off.

Exactly. Am I saying that I 100% believe that he killed however many commanders between ESB and ROTJ? No, for all I know he killed none in that time. But I think Jerjerrod's "gulp" (lol) was indicative that Vader had still carried himself in the intervening months since ESB exactly as he always had. His entire conversation with Jerjerrod was laced with veiled threats so it didn't seem to me like there was any kind of noticeable shift in how he dealt with his men since ESB.

 

[jye4ever]

Meanwhile on Endor female dress shopping for ewoks continues…

 

[ajp4mgs]

Makes me ponder an interesting hypothetical - what if Luke had agreed to learn the dark side and not jumped to his could-have-been demise there on Cloud City? What if he came in off that gantry and went with Vader? With Vader's then line of thinking is it possible he would have immediately gone rogue, defied the Emperor and stole the Executor and as much of the Imperial Fleet as he could control?

The smarter option probably would've been to avoid a "civil" war of two competing Imperial factions. If Luke decided to join his father, I'd like to believe that they'd team up to take out Palpatine first. Maybe they could accomplish this by bringing Luke to the Emperor as planned, but then catching him off guard with a double-team double-cross.

Either way, the best way forward would've been to inherit the throne and maintain the loyalty of the entire Imperial forces. Much like what Kylo did with Snoke. Which is why it still kills me that I didn't get to see what Vader's grandson would do with that position of authority. But you couldn't care less about that, so I'll drop it.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Great post ajp, but I don't think anything you state above contradicts my interpretation of the events save for what Vader was thinking and feeling under his helmet in that last scene on the Executor. Obviously we have no choice but to speculate due to him not saying anything and us not being able to see his expression but I still think that your interpretation requires more recontextualization based on ROTJ Vader than considering his arc within the context of ESB.

No he didn't speak when the Falcon escaped but he did speak shortly before, and he was all business and 100% acting in the same vein as he had previously with Piett. "Did your men deactivate the hyperdrive on the Millennium Falcon...good, prepare a boarding party and set your weapons for stun," was delivered with the same authoritative cadence of all his previous commands, and I didn't and still don't see any reason why his response to failure to carry out said commands would have been any different than before. And that was with anger. Potentially destructive anger.

No he didn't kill anyone, but he doesn't always kill when a subordinate lets him down "Don't fail me again...admiral" but it is definitely a possibility. And I still think that the double take and quiet departure was because he was so damn mad that he HAD to just bury it and immediately leave the bridge before he killed EVERYBODY, lol. I know the prevailing opinion was that he was greatly softened in that moment but I'll just have to be in the minority on this one and respectfully disagree.

I do think that yes he was on a path to redemption even in ESB prior to those final moments, but I still think that that wasn't mutually exclusive with him seething like never before in that particular moment. Even ROTJ itself showed us that that wasn't some major turning point in how he handled failure as evidenced by the very first scene of that movie. "I hope so commander for your sake, the Emperor is not as forgiving as I am..." I think we can all agree that Vader wasn't being matter of fact about his actual forgiving nature, no he was being sarcastic knowing full well how terrifying the notion to Jerjerrod would be that there could be a being who was even *less* forgiving than he. I take that as further evidence that the end of ESB hadn't turned him into a tolerant commander who accepted failure any more than he previously had based on Jerjerrod's response.

That's how I see it anyway, I understand if you disagree and your takes are fun to read either way.

My take is based on how the scene played out to me the first time, and every time since, combined with a belief that Lucas would've been using that unique reaction from Vader to set up something in the narrative to follow. It seems purposeful in how stark of a contrast his reaction was when compared to earlier failures. But I could be wrong. Nothing you state regarding your contrasting view is unreasonable at all.

I think it's to be expected that Vader would still speak to his officers in the same tone. I'm not suggesting that he had a complete personality shift. He simply found himself resigned to certain things that wouldn't have burdened him before interacting with his son for the first time. And yes, there's every reason to believe that he wanted the Falcon crew captured since Luke was on that ship. But when they got away, I don't think that was the Vader reaction anyone was anticipating (on screen and in the audience). It had to be purposeful, IMO.

We won't agree on this particular matter, but one change to ROTJ that we can both probably agree to regret is the alleged tossing of the original plan for Boba Fett being the main villain of the first part of the movie. If that means we'd have no Jabba, then I can take comfort in the change since Jabba was awesome. But if we could've had both Jabba and a big role for a badass Fett!? C'mon!

 

[Khev]

Yeah, if only we could have gotten something more substantial for Fett in ROTJ. Like probably everybody else I would have been perfectly fine with nothing more than a better showing at the Sarlacc pit. Luke's a commander in the Rebellion, Leia is obviously high ranking, I think that Luke's ridiculously convoluted plan of freeing Han would have been less eye-rolling if the whole point of baiting Jabba into taking them to the Sarlacc was because a couple dropships of Rebel troops were staked out past a nearby sand dune.

Then right as Luke does his little flying flip move the soldiers come flying out to help the heroes, Fett launches a rocket into one of the ships destroying it outright then proceeds to mow down the rest of the troops from the other ship before he finally can't fight both the troopers and main heroes at once and gets taken out by Han. If they wanted to really give the rescue some edge have Lando go over the side taking Fett with him. Both men struggle to get out of the Sarlacc but Lando disappears first and right as Fett goes under you see him pull out a thermal detonator that starts beeping, he disappears then boom, the entire Sarlacc goes up in a ball of flame and guts.

Obviously that'd require major restructuring of the space battle with Lando gone but they could have still done something similar even if it was just Fett alone who died. Oh well.

 

[Wor-Gar]

As a kid, I just wanted to see Fett fly in his jetpack.

And then he did... wailing and flailing... with an Oof! hitting the barge, and a hole-in-one.

 

[Khev]

As a kid, I just wanted to see Fett fly in his jetpack.

Thankfully so did Robert Rodriguez.

And then he did... wailing and flailing... with an Oof! hitting the barge, and a hole-in-one.

 

[JAWS]

My take is based on how the scene played out to me the first time, and every time since, combined with a belief that Lucas would've been using that unique reaction from Vader to set up something in the narrative to follow. It seems purposeful in how stark of a contrast his reaction was when compared to earlier failures. But I could be wrong. Nothing you state regarding your contrasting view is unreasonable at all.

I think it's to be expected that Vader would still speak to his officers in the same tone. I'm not suggesting that he had a complete personality shift. He simply found himself resigned to certain things that wouldn't have burdened him before interacting with his son for the first time. And yes, there's every reason to believe that he wanted the Falcon crew captured since Luke was on that ship. But when they got away, I don't think that was the Vader reaction anyone was anticipating (on screen and in the audience). It had to be purposeful, IMO.

Pretty much my take. Khev is wrong

 

[Wor-Gar]

Regarding that final walk-off of Vader's in ESB... to me, it felt like the beginning of a new chapter in the Story of "Darth Vader, the Tragedy". For the first time, Vader seemed sad. Dejected. Especially with that 2nd look back out to empty space, his son vanished.

I could see where his character was headed -- the Tragedy of Vader had begun.

 

[Khev]

Pretty much my take. Khev is wrong

Me and one of my friends used to talk about how tense it must have been on the bridge in that scene with Vader so angry that he didn't even stop to kill anyone but clearly the votes aren't with me on that one today, lol. Oh well, my take is my take, singular as it is in this case and I'm sticking to it.

 

[ZE_501]

I remember the ESB comic adaptation, referring to Vader walking off as something like "...contemplative, lost in thought" or something. Not sad and moping, but like the officers were beneath his notice at that moment.

 

[JAWS]

I remember the ESB comic adaptation, referring to Vader walking off as something like "...contemplative, lost in thought" or something. Not sad and moping, but like the officers were beneath his notice at that moment.

That’s a perfect way to put it.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Vader never killed anyone again after that last scene in Empire, as far as the movies go.

 

[abake]

Agreed, I always felt that scene showed Vader feeling defeated and sad at not being able to win his son over.

Edit: was replying to JAWS' earlier post, hadn't realised there were more answers after it

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

Apparently Boyega walked off the set in the middle of a Netflix show that was shooting, forcing production to shut down and dozens of other workers to be let go.