Star Wars: Andor (September 21st, 2022)

[TaliBane]

Hmmm about Imperials soldiers and stormtroopers yet you cited actions by Vader, Moffs, and civilians as examples of the Stortroopers being evil and competent.

You also ignore my other examples and seem to focus on one of Reva which show the Disney era Empire being just as evil as OT.

Seems you are less inclined to actually debate and discuss and only wish to further push your own narrative. Typical.

As I said earlier, many of the D+ examples you cite are so vaguely described as to be unrecognizable, so it's hard to actually debate.

Well, other than cutting off citizen body parts in public....



Now... back to that point of discussion:

HOW STORMTROOPERS ARE MOSTLY FORMIDABLE AND EFFECTIVE IN THE OT, BUT LINE UP TO BE KILLED WITH HAND SLAPS AND RARELY IF EVER EVEN INJURE ANYONE IN D+ SERIES.

Yeah?

 

[Kebron]

As I said earlier, many of the D+ examples you cite are so vaguely described as to be unrecognizable, so it's hard to actua

As I said earlier, many of the D+ examples you cite are so vaguely described as to be unrecognizable, so it's hard to actually debate.

Well, other than cutting off citizen body parts in public....



Now... back to that point of discussion:

HOW STORMTROOPERS ARE MOSTLY FORMIDABLE AND EFFECTIVE IN THE OT, BUT LINE UP TO BE KILLED WITH HAND SLAPS AND RARELY IF EVER EVEN INJURE ANYONE IN D+ SERIES.

Yeah?

He gives vague references to be accepted as proof, but says mine are to vague to be counted. Hypocrite much?

You were the one who brought up that the Disney era Star Wars didn't show the Empire's soldiers as evil as the OT. But now that you've been proven wrong I totally understand why you are now backing away and changing goal posts.

Interesting that you are trying to narrow the parameters to include only D+ series and exclude things like Rogue One, and Rebels which are Disney era Star Wars that do show Troopers as effective and formidable, arguably more so then the OT. Makes one think you are trying to just push a certain agenda of yours.

You are limiting the debate to three movies on your side (or is it two cause being beaten by care bears with sticks is pretty embarrassing I see why you'd leave that one out) and one show on the Disney side. Talk about stacking the deck in your favor.

 

[ScoutingForToys]

exclude things like Rogue One, and Rebels which are Disney era Star Wars that do show Troopers as effective and foformidable

At what point does the Rebels show portray troopers as effective and formidable?
Rebels is one of the biggest offenders when it comes to making troopers look hilariously and childishly inept.

 

[Kebron]

That's the thing isn't it. If it was at least comparable to the OT (preferably SW/ESB) that'd be one thing. But compare the opening of ANH where the Stormies charge through the small door on Leia's ship and immediately blow away seven Rebel troops to the OWK show where that giant garage door opens and about *200* Stormtroopers open fire on like nine Rebel electricians and plumbers and after about two straight minutes of fire finally take out one of them???

What the hell, lol.

So your numbers aren't exactly correct. I get you are trying to skew things to your view, but details matter.

In the OT doorway scene there were a total of 10 Rebels, all with no cover. The Empire came through a small door tat provided cover and has smoke to obscure the Rebel's aim. Even with that those heavy advantages that the Troopers had they only managed to kill 5 Rebels, and the Rebels killed three Troopers. That's from me just now watching that scene, feel free to check yourself, I'm more then willing to admit I may have missed a dead body somewhere.

In the Obi Wan scene it looks like the Troopers numbered in the 50-100 range (hard to count since they moved the camera alot). This time the Rebels had cover, where the Stormtroopers had none, they literally charged through a open door. That sheer fact alone will of course cause the Troopers to have a higher body count then the Rebels. More Rebels then just one also died, and they also had more then 9 people on their side. The biggest factor for the Rebels though, is that they had a Jedi on their side that was actively trying to defend them, and it was him who took down most of the troopers, not the "electricians and plumbers". Plus going back to the sheer number of troopers going through that doorway, it would of been a greater feat to miss one of them.

IMO in both cases the troopers are really inefficient and not well trained. the Tactics in both cases are poor, but that does fall in line with how Troopers are portrayed in all of Star Wars, they are fodder, and their real advantage is their sheer number, they eventually just overwhelm whatever they are attacking.

 

[Kebron]

At what point does the Rebels show portray troopers as effective and formidable?
Rebels is one of the biggest offenders when it comes to making troopers look hilariously and childishly inept.

The original topic I was using Rebels for was comparing how evil the soldiers of the Empire are. Tali was saying that Disney doesn't show how evil the Empire really is. Rebels showed a darker side of the Empire that we haven't seen before.

What Rebels did do for troopers is basically explained how the Empire views them as fodder. It helps explain away a lot of the uneven handling of Troopers from the OT.

 

[ScoutingForToys]

The original topic I was using Rebels for was comparing how evil the soldiers of the Empire are. Tali was saying that Disney doesn't show how evil the Empire really is. Rebels showed a darker side of the Empire that we haven't seen before.

What Rebels did do for troopers is basically explained how the Empire views them as fodder. It helps explain away a lot of the uneven handling of Troopers from the OT.

That didn't answer my question, which directly quoted you, that Rebels shows troopers being effective and formidable.

 

[Kebron]

That didn't answer my question, which directly quoted you, that Rebels shows troopers being effective and formidable.

I did. I said in Rebels it explained how the Empire sees Troopers...their number. Rebels even shows and mentions that in numbers is where the Troopers power and efficiency is. It's how they've always been shown very effective in their numbers, but when few they are easily defeated. Rebels showed this, the OT showed this, all of SW showed this.

 

[ScoutingForToys]

I did. I said in Rebels it explained how the Empire sees Troopers...their number. Rebels even shows and mentions that in numbers is where the Troopers power and efficiency is. It's how they've always been shown very effective in their numbers, but when few they are easily defeated. Rebels showed this, the OT showed this, all of SW showed this.

What nonsense. You've actually made an argument for them being shown as ineffective and inept when you described them as canon fodder.
There's also the fact that at no point in Rebels are Stormtroopers shown to be a threat, a real danger.
So you cant explain any scenes in which troopers were effective in Rebels then.

 

[Kebron]

What nonsense. So you cant explain any scenes in which troopers were effective in Rebels then.

If you've watched the show and listen to the dialog, it's there.

As for examples there are several. The Rebels were overrun by the Troopers numbers on several occasion in the series, and had to retreat. The Rebels actively hid and avoided Troopers until they had a advantage or needed to engage them. Members of the team were constantly captured or cornered and needed to be rescued. Those are just examples off the top of my head, I can pull up a wiki and find more if needed, but I suspect you don't really care.

 

[Kebron]

What nonsense. You've actually made an argument for them being shown as ineffective and inept when you described them as canon fodder.
There's also the fact that at no point in Rebels are Stormtroopers shown to be a threat, a real danger.
So you cant explain any scenes in which troopers were effective in Rebels then.

Ah I see you edited after my initial reply.

Seems I triggered you a bit, apologies.

Using overwhelming numbers as canon fodder is indeed a tactic that has been and continues to be used and it is a effective tool as long as you have the numbers to resupply.

If stormtroopers were meant to be more then that they have never shown it in any SW. They have armor that does nothing but hinder them, they constantly miss and its only in numbers that we see them be effective. It's only when you start looking at the specialized units that we start seeing something beyond them being just cannon fodder.

 

[chrisstbh]

What nonsense. You've actually made an argument for them being shown as ineffective and inept when you described them as canon fodder.
There's also the fact that at no point in Rebels are Stormtroopers shown to be a threat, a real danger.
So you cant explain any scenes in which troopers were effective in Rebels then.

Not Stormtroopers technically but an AT-AT pilot does kill Kanan and a random Engineer kills Gregor. There's also that scene where a bunch of Mandalorians get disintigrated during a battle with some Stormtroopers, although they do have a superweapon. Along with all the Rebel pilots that go bye bye.

 

[ScoutingForToys]

Not Stormtroopers technically but an AT-AT pilot does kill Kanan and a random Engineer kills Gregor. There's also that scene where a bunch of Mandalorians get disintigrated during a battle with some Stormtroopers, although they do have a superweapon. Along with all the Rebel pilots that go bye bye.

Yes exactly. There's caveats to Imperial wins. Stormtrooper involvement is limited.
Balance that against the enormous ineptitude displayed by Troopers in Rebels.

 

[Kebron]

Yes exactly. There's caveats to Imperial wins. Stormtrooper involvement is limited.
Balance that against the enormous ineptitude displayed by Troopers in Rebels.

That's the case in all Star Wars. They are shown inept except in certain situations. Basically when the story/plot needs them to be.

 

[choombaz]

That's the case in all Star Wars. They are shown inept except in certain situations. Basically when the story/plot needs them to be.

Yes that’s how all stories work, the rules are made to be broken. We mostly remember them bad shots but then Leia gets shot from a distance in Jedi because the situation called for it. If they were expert shots all of the time it would be pretty boring.

 

[TaliBane]

He gives vague references to be accepted as proof, but says mine are to vague to be counted. Hypocrite much?

You were the one who brought up that the Disney era Star Wars didn't show the Empire's soldiers as evil as the OT. But now that you've been proven wrong I totally understand why you are now backing away and changing goal posts.

Interesting that you are trying to narrow the parameters to include only D+ series and exclude things like Rogue One, and Rebels which are Disney era Star Wars that do show Troopers as effective and formidable, arguably more so then the OT. Makes one think you are trying to just push a certain agenda of yours.

You are limiting the debate to three movies on your side (or is it two cause being beaten by care bears with sticks is pretty embarrassing I see why you'd leave that one out) and one show on the Disney side. Talk about stacking the deck in your favor.

One laughing emoji for each post you've made on this subject in under 24 hours? Talk about favoring your own stacked deck.

I'm not "narrowing the parameters": the comparison I've been making all along is between the OT (as definitional SW gold standard) and D+ live action series, because it's largely in S2 of Mando, BOBF, and Kenobi where this problem has emerged, then gotten REALLY bad.

While you're trying to cast the net backward and wider, the core issue is that with the ST over, SW is ALL about D+ series from now on.

That's why the topic I initiated is comparing weak, ineffectual stormtroopers/imperial troops in this new D+ "cinematic universe" to the menacing, effective iconic stormtroopers/imperial troops in the OT. And also importantly... why it's important.

I get that you want to muddy the parameters, wrap a "wup, we got another Disney-hater over here!" ribbon around the whole thing then do the emoji dance, but that doesn't erase the uniformly **** depiction of stormtroopers and imperials in these D+ series. And the damage it does.

When it comes to easy-beating stormies, baldy bobas with sticks are a whole lot worse than care bears with sticks... because his name's in the title.

Sorry to face-plant your victory lap.

 

[Kebron]

One laughing emoji for each post you've made on this subject in under 24 hours? Talk about favoring your own stacked deck.

I'm not "narrowing the parameters": the comparison I've been making all along is between the OT (as definitional SW gold standard) and D+ live action series, because it's largely in S2 of Mando, BOBF, and Kenobi where this problem has emerged, then gotten REALLY bad.

While you're trying to cast the net backward and wider, the core issue is that with the ST over, SW is ALL about D+ series from now on.

That's why the topic I initiated is comparing weak, ineffectual stormtroopers/imperial troops in this new D+ "cinematic universe" to the menacing, effective iconic stormtroopers/imperial troops in the OT. And also importantly... why it's important.

I get that you want to muddy the parameters, wrap a "wup, we got another Disney-hater over here!" ribbon around the whole thing then do the emoji dance, but that doesn't erase the uniformly **** depiction of stormtroopers and imperials in these D+ series. And the damage it does.

When it comes to easy-beating stormies, baldy bobas with sticks are a whole lot worse than care bears with sticks... because his name's in the title.

Sorry to face-plant your victory lap.

Trying to divert by saying I stacked a deck by posting emojis indicating I was laughing at you. Do you even read what you write?

The comparison you made all along? Hmmm let's look into that. Lets go back to the post you made where I initially chimed in on.

A few humorous bits aside, the dumbing down of stormtroopers only really began in ROTJ where the tone of SW began to shift. But beyond the obvious (in a gunfight with heroes, heroes can't get shot and die) ANH, ESB and part of ROTJ the Empire is more than competent - they are ruthless winners.

In the OT, soldiers of Empire:

- brutally muscle their way onto the Tantive IV, either killing or marching away humiliated all rebels, then actually shoot Leia to take her before Vader.
- Tortured both Leia and Han, and to a lesser degree Chewie
- blasted 3PO apart without hesitation
- mercilessly won the battle of Hoth
- literally fried Beru and Owen
- froze Han (uncertain if he would live) while forcing his friends to watch
- massacred Jawas just for selling the droids and even covered it up
- wiped out an entire planet with a superweapon... just as a demo, really just for the hell of it
- kill rebel pilots one after another in the battle of Yavin (and if not for the force would have won)

This is just a sampling. They are merciless, very competent and successful - and NONE of this stuff would be allowed to happen in a Disney show. Even where there are occasional small moments of weakness or silliness in the OT (Ben's mind trick, Han chasing the stormies) it is overwhelmingly balanced out.

Even in the worst of ROTJ, the many moments of weakness/ineptitude are to some degree balanced out by stuff like the speeder bike chase, and the sheer evil competency of the Emperor - plus also the shadow of everything we had seen from the Empire in ANH and ESB.

You begin with Stormtroopers but then, specifically say in that fist section, The Empire as a whole. Your list has things on it that have nothing to do with Stormtroopers, but with the Empire has a whole, you even specifically mention the Emperor as a example of the evil competency. So how exactly is that the "comparison you made all along" regarding Stormtroopers? Last I checked the Emperor wasn't a Stormtrooper.

Im not trying to cast a net backwards. I'm looking at all TV and movie sources we have involving the Empire era. You are wanting to limit to just OT and Disney+. And considering Mando is Post ROTJ I didn't actually count that, but if you are now wanting to include it, there's evidence there of Stormtroopers showed as effective.

I'm not wrapping a ribbon on anything, I'm also not blinded by nostalgia as you seem to be. Stormtroopers were always portrayed a certain way, and they continue that tradition in the Disney+ era. Menacing and effective when needed, silly and ineffective when needed as the story dictates. There is no damage done they are still the Stormtroopers we've always seen portrayed.

Why do you think you are faceplanting a victory lap? Aside from trying to narrow the discussion down from your own attempt to widening it to include the whole of the Empire, you still haven't shown how Disney era Stormtroopers (or Empire) are any worse then what we've seen in the OT.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I think stormtroopers (not to mention scout troopers in Mando) being portrayed on D+ as a total joke is a worthy gripe and it bugs me to no end, but as has been pointed out in a few posts, the bigger problem is the portrayal of the Empire in total. The staggering Imperial incompetence undermines everything about how they were able to keep an entire galaxy in line during the OT era. It's not about whether they're being shown to be evil enough or not; the issue is more grounded and practical than that. It's about credibility of the premise of an Imperial grip of power over an *entire galaxy* (including planets and systems used for nothing more than slave labor, where torture is the norm and is known about everywhere).

In the OT, the Empire made bad tactical decisions (in order for the plots to actually be allowed to progress), but their overall competence and dominance was loud and clear.

From overtaking the Tantive and its crew, to tracking runaway droids to the Lars, to destroying an entire planet, to *allowing* Rebels to escape the Death Star in order to track them to their base, to picking off nearly every starfighter not named "Luke"... the Empire in ANH was dominant every step of the way before Luke's one-in-a-million shot.

In ESB, I've always felt that the Empire took a step back in competence (one of the reasons I prefer ANH), but they still dominated overall by keeping Rebels on the run. And they did things like find a Rebel base on Hoth that should've been a needle in a haystack of galactic proportions.

The ROTJ battle of Endor gets mocked for "teddy bears" beating the Empire, but that's always been a grossly simplified characterization of what was being conveyed (albeit with poor execution). The Imperial forces on Endor were prepared to deal with a small band of Rebels; and when that was the extent of their opposition, they won. The execution of the Ewok plot was regrettable, but the concept was fine: Palpatine's hubris in orchestrating the Rebels to a false hope gets undone by overlooking primitive natives who resent their land being occupied and trampled on. If not for that, the plan to lure the entirety of Rebel forces to the DS2 was actually brilliant and came within a hair of ending the civil war in the Empire's favor.

But I can't think of a single instance on D+ where the Empire has shown comparable competence. As has been discussed here for several pages, stormtroopers have been a joke. But their leadership has also been a joke. From infighting to mind-numbing oversights, their ineptitude has been staggering. It's bad with the Remnant in Mando, but I can forgive that because they're just leftovers. In OWK, though, the Empire at the height of their power is so entirely clueless in almost every situation that they're laughable. This creates such a cognitive dissonance with the OT for me, that it's impossible to reconcile. I suspect Andor will be very different on that front (but it seems the show might be plagued by other issues).

More and more people keep mocking "OT purists" (aka "old people") and our "nostalgia goggles." Not the case. Imperial bad tactics to keep plots moving is not on the same level as negligently turning the entire Empire into such a farcical entity that their ultimate destruction was always a given. That undercuts the achievement of the OT Rebellion. That's not good no matter how you approach it.

 

[Khev]

I think stormtroopers (not to mention scout troopers in Mando) being portrayed on D+ as a total joke is a worthy gripe and it bugs me to no end, but as has been pointed out in a few posts, the bigger problem is the portrayal of the Empire in total. The staggering Imperial incompetence undermines everything about how they were able to keep an entire galaxy in line during the OT era. It's not about whether they're being shown to be evil enough or not; the issue is more grounded and practical than that. It's about credibility of the premise of an Imperial grip of power over an *entire galaxy* (including planets and systems used for nothing more than slave labor, where torture is the norm and is known about everywhere).

In the OT, the Empire made bad tactical decisions (in order for the plots to actually be allowed to progress), but their overall competence and dominance was loud and clear.

From overtaking the Tantive and its crew, to tracking runaway droids to the Lars, to destroying an entire planet, to *allowing* Rebels to escape the Death Star in order to track them to their base, to picking off nearly every starfighter not named "Luke"... the Empire in ANH was dominant every step of the way before Luke's one-in-a-million shot.

In ESB, I've always felt that the Empire took a step back in competence (one of the reasons I prefer ANH), but they still dominated overall by keeping Rebels on the run. And they did things like find a Rebel base on Hoth that should've been a needle in a haystack of galactic proportions.

The ROTJ battle of Endor gets mocked for "teddy bears" beating the Empire, but that's always been a grossly simplified characterization of what was being conveyed (albeit with poor execution). The Imperial forces on Endor were prepared to deal with a small band of Rebels; and when that was the extent of their opposition, they won. The execution of the Ewok plot was regrettable, but the concept was fine: Palpatine's hubris in orchestrating the Rebels to a false hope gets undone by overlooking primitive natives who resent their land being occupied and trampled on. If not for that, the plan to lure the entirety of Rebel forces to the DS2 was actually brilliant and came within a hair of ending the civil war in the Empire's favor.

But I can't think of a single instance on D+ where the Empire has shown comparable competence. As has been discussed here for several pages, stormtroopers have been a joke. But their leadership has also been a joke. From infighting to mind-numbing oversights, their ineptitude has been staggering. It's bad with the Remnant in Mando, but I can forgive that because they're just leftovers. In OWK, though, the Empire at the height of their power is so entirely clueless in almost every situation that they're laughable. This creates such a cognitive dissonance with the OT for me, that it's impossible to reconcile. I suspect Andor will be very different on that front (but it seems the show might be plagued by other issues).

More and more people keep mocking "OT purists" (aka "old people") and our "nostalgia goggles." Not the case. Imperial bad tactics to keep plots moving is not on the same level as negligently turning the entire Empire into such a farcical entity that their ultimate destruction was always a given. That undercuts the achievement of the OT Rebellion. That's not good no matter how you approach it.

Great post ajp.

Also with regard to Endor people like to say that "the Empire got defeated by teddy bears" but that really isn't accurate. The Rebels were being routed and the efforts of the ewoks themselves were shown to be entirely ineffective (beyond their initial surprise appearance which allowed the captured heroes to scatter) until Chewie stole a Scout Walker and turned the tide. So once again if you take the main characters out of the equation the Empire was winning when you just look at grunts vs. grunts.

No Chewie, no victory on Endor. No victory on Endor, the shields stay up and Ackbar's fleet gets wiped up, Death Star remains.

Compared to OWK where random sewage speeder drivers outsmart the main Imperial Inquisitor villain and all of her forces, lol.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Great post ajp.

Also with regard to Endor people like to say that "the Empire got defeated by teddy bears" but that really isn't accurate. The Rebels were being routed and the efforts of the ewoks themselves were shown to be entirely ineffective (beyond their initial surprise appearance which allowed the captured heroes to scatter) until Chewie stole a Scout Walker and turned the tide. So once again if you take the main characters out of the equation the Empire was winning when you just look at grunts vs. grunts.

Thanks, Khev.

I agree about the overblown role of the Ewoks, but I'd be fine with an even more pronounced role for them since it did have thematic value and does play well into Palpatine's overconfidence being his fatal weakness.

Ironically, if Lucas had today's CGI in the early 80's, the Ewok acts of aggression could've actually been cool. The little people in fur costumes with semi-opaque eyes wasn't an ideal solution. If they were well-done CGI Ewoks attacking with greater intensity and ferocity (literally being more feral), it could've gone over entirely differently. But as you say, there's still Imperial competence on display that gets overlooked. And Leia and Artoo getting shot are the only times in the OT that main characters get hit by blasters (not counting ANH Artoo's X-Wing damage).

 

[Khev]

Thanks, Khev.

I agree about the overblown role of the Ewoks, but I'd be fine with an even more pronounced role for them since it did have thematic value and does play well into Palpatine's overconfidence being his fatal weakness.

Ironically, if Lucas had today's CGI in the early 80's, the Ewok acts of aggression could've actually been cool. The little people in fur costumes with semi-opaque eyes wasn't an ideal solution. If they were well-done CGI Ewoks attacking with greater intensity and ferocity (literally being more feral), it could've gone over entirely differently. But as you say, there's still Imperial competence on display that gets overlooked. And Leia and Artoo getting shot are the only times in the OT that main characters get hit by blasters (not counting ANH Artoo's X-Wing damage).

Yeah that would have been cool if the Ewoks had been portrayed as being more savage, though in some ways it's even more disturbing that they are so cute and cuddly while having absolutely zero qualms about eating humans that they capture, lol.

As for OT characters getting hit by blasters don't forget 3PO on Cloud City and Leia getting stunned by the Trooper in ANH.

I think Chewie might have gotten shot in the shin by one of Jabba's guards over the Sarlacc Pit too, I can't remember completely but I believe he is shown to be clutching his leg with some blood on his fur.