Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (June 30th, 2023)

[jye4ever]

Poor a-dev that must hurt to read lol

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

The villain sucks in TLC. The female lead also sucks. She looks good, but she had no personality unlike Marion. Even Spielberg's wife in TOD was more memorable. TOD had a better villain, supporting cast, and set pieces.

I love the dinner scene in TOD, but it's probably culturally insensitive now.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The villains are indeed weak in TLC... always my first concern. Glover is horribly bland. German officer Vogel is essentially "yet another nasty Nazi" but he's the best of the bunch. Elsa's hot but not much more, and a terrible actress.

The one bright spot with Indy 5 is having a solid actor like Mads as the villain. And thankfully he doesn't seem capable to act over-the-top like Cate Blanchett did. He will likely be the best thing in Indy 5... which is a sad statement.

 

[jye4ever]

TOD raft free fall sucks

 

[xipotec]

Even though TOD has major issues (and likely doesn't play well with a certain element of society today) it still at times has an Raiders-Indy edge but something major changed with TLC.

The tone was off and Connery was kind of wasted as this pompous, bumbling buffoon for a lot of it - as was Brody, Sallah and even Indy at times. Just so over the top and even stupid in many places, and many moments where you're aware of actors on a set.

The Raiders darker realism had just evaporated, replaced by this goofy, not-as-funny-as it-thinks tone that I recall feeling so jarred by when I saw it at the Manns Chinese in 1989. The entire River Phoenix opening was so cartoonish - too Goonies, not enough Stand By Me like it needed to be.

That being said, it's still watchable unlike KOTCS, and do have TLC collectables.

What I think your referring to is the comedy element being to full on for TLC. While ROTLA had its funny bits (especially Indy getting hit with the mirror LOL) it’s tone was mostly serious, except on occasion when Indy was not living up to the Hero role....it was funny to watch the hero in a non heroic moment.

TLC had too many of those moments, for some. I think it’s a great film, and I view it as Comedy/Adventure.....while ROTLA is Adventure with splashes of comedy.

TOD was straight out Adventure as there are hardly any scenes at all that I think are funny...(ok maybe Indy screaming “We are going to DIE” .... but with terrible special effects(even for the time) a silly cult story, and possible the most annoying female lead ever on screen ....I find it almost unwatchable......almost.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I memba that scene. I like when the lady asked Indy if he knew how to fly the plane, and he said, "No, do you?"

It's been a few years since I've seen TOD, yet I remember quite a bit.

The intro with Indy in the Bond tux.
Plane sequence
When they meet the Indian elder and eat his food.
The dinner scene
The intruder that gets hanged
The cave/trap scene with the bugs
The human sacrifice
Indy goes evil and hits Short Round
The temple fights
The temple chase using miniatures
The bridge scene
Mountain fall and crocodiles
Kids return to the village

TLC on the other hand

Young Indy intro
Boat chase/interrogation
Indy does an accent I think....?
Gets captured with father and they escape a fire
There's a blimp
Indy gets Hitler's autograph
A beach with Indy's dad chasing some birds
A tank fight and they all think Indy died
Indy's hat falls off
Indy gets holy grail and saves dad.
They ride into the sunset.

KOTKS

Atomic bomb fridge
Hey old man!
Old man!
Part time
Another crazy old man
Quicksand
Chase in jungle and monkey swinging
Ants eat a guy
Alien kills bad lady
UFO flies away
Wedding
Indy keeps his hat

Yup, can't wait to have some new Indy memories from part 5.

 

[Wor-Gar]

TOD was straight out Adventure as there are hardly any scenes at all that I think are funny

You may not think its funny, but ToD is loaded with comedy. Too much so -- tons of slapstick with Willie (getting on elephant the wrong way or falling off her bed, screaming and running from jungle animals scene, etc), almost anything with Short Round, the gross-out banquette scene. It gets pretty dark once inside the catacombs but even then there's the Chief dropping the rock on his head or Short Round's fast-motion karate-chops.

It all has a silliness quotient to it...

 

[xipotec]

You may not think its funny, but ToD is loaded with comedy. Too much so -- tons of slapstick with Willie (getting on elephant the wrong way or falling off her bed, screaming and running from jungle animals scene, etc), almost anything with Short Round, the gross-out banquette scene. It gets pretty dark once inside the catacombs but even then there's the Chief dropping the rock on his head or Short Round's fast-motion karate-chops.

It all has a silliness quotient to it...

Yeah those might be a good list for all the things I hated about it.

1. Every scene with Willie.
2. Every scene with short round.

To me , Connery as Jones Sr did more with his role that those 2 combined.

 

[matticus]

#RebootIndy

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Raiders had Nazi monkey.

 

[Wor-Gar]

To me , Connery as Jones Sr did more with his role that those 2 combined.

True. Its Connery. Underused in TLC... where Willie and Short Round were definitely overused.

 

[TaliBane]

What I think your referring to is the comedy element being to full on for TLC. While ROTLA had its funny bits (especially Indy getting hit with the mirror LOL) it’s tone was mostly serious, except on occasion when Indy was not living up to the Hero role....it was funny to watch the hero in a non heroic moment.

TLC had too many of those moments, for some. I think it’s a great film, and I view it as Comedy/Adventure.....while ROTLA is Adventure with splashes of comedy.

TOD was straight out Adventure as there are hardly any scenes at all that I think are funny...(ok maybe Indy screaming “We are going to DIE” .... but with terrible special effects(even for the time) a silly cult story, and possible the most annoying female lead ever on screen ....I find it almost unwatchable......almost.

Raiders has the same balance of comedy as most adventures - maybe 80% serious, 20% comedic or more light-hearted.

TLC almost seems to reverse that, where it becomes hard to take what's happening onscreen seriously. Compare the ROTLA truck chase with the "Daaad!!" TLC sidecar chase.

And while some of TOD's FX were bad (Jaws cave...,) TLC is just chock full of scenes that 100% feel like a studio set with a bunch of costumed actors on it. That castle sequence is pretty bad in all regards, right down to the Looney Toons coils of rope around the Joneses in the chairs.

TLC was the first Indy movie that to me also really didn't feel like I was actually watching a real period and place: TOD has its Velveeta throughout, but many sections do feel like you are in 1930s India etc. Raiders obviously excels in this regard - transporting you to a time and place. TLC feels bogus from the silly River Phoenix get-go (who the hell cast that Scooby-Doo line-up of opening sequence dolts? And gotta love a red-faced fat kid) all the way to the silly "step of Faith" ending.

But oh, poor Brody - from edgy friend who warns Indy in ROTLA what he's getting into to the sweaty early alzheimers comedy of TLC. And where the hell was Connery getting in some kickass Bond moments in the second half alongside his son - this was nearly a decade before The Rock. Instead he's this total ninny who whines and acts like a stupid grandpa, not the architect of the whole grail quest they are on.

Just as ROTJ was setting the stage for the off-the-cliff trajectory of the PT, you can clearly see in TLC the seeds of KOTCS and perhaps... Indy 5.

 

[Wor-Gar]

TLC was the first Indy movie that to me also really didn't feel like I was actually watching a real period and place. TLC feels bogus from the silly River Phoenix get-go (who the hell cast that Scooby-Doo line-up of opening sequence dolts? And gotta love a red-faced fat kid) all the way to the silly "step of Faith" ending.

Excellent point. There was a cheapness and a laziness to the entire movie. Donovan's suite looked like they borrowed the dining room from cloud city... and that leap of faith sight-gag was the most idiotic beat in the movie -- Indy really couldn't see the rock-bridge trick that only works from a single angle (which the camera clearly displays).

Your comparison of the Raiders Truck Chase made me think of the Joneses in the plane: "Son, they got us." Totally different tone. And the constant compulsion to ignore logic shows either Spielberg's ego at the time or his total boredom with the subject (likely both).

One of the things that drove me crazy was when the plane sweeps into the tunnel -- there's a great suspense shot of the Joneses unable to drive faster that the speeding fuselage burning up the tunnel behind them -- its like the boulder all over again but on fire! -- but suddenly, the flaming plane simply passes them -- pilot looking as confused as they do -- the tunnel magically accommodating the entire burning plane and the car -- and the moment is thrown away on a dumb joke. This beat encapsulates what they do to every action sequence. All the way to Indy getting trapped between tank and rocky ridge by his... bag strap? But of course, trapped only until he climbs back onboard and never has to remove his tangled strap from the canon he was just strung up to.

If Adventure has a Name... its Mindless.

 

[TaliBane]

In a two-week period in 1989, two of my most favorite franchises hit an iceberg (Ghostbusters II was two weeks after TLC) and then months later, BTTF2 sunk yet another one.
From there it was like the St Valentine's Day Massacre: Gremlins 2, Predator 2, Robocop 2, (not a fan of Die Hard 2 either)...

Something changed in that latter 80s/early 90s period.

 

[Luisenigma1]

Would have loved to see third film be about The fate of Atlantis story or even The Spear of Destiny would have been a better film with his father, though that story takes place after TLC.

 

[a-dev]

See this is where I feel like Ducky when he reads PT hate or the ROTJ criticism in the SWIX thread the past few days. What films were you all watching, you're all wrong, why can't you just enjoy them like I do. But everything that has happened before will happen again and has always happened. If you guys do not hold objective truth then neither do I and nor will the people after me. Like what you like, don't like what you don't like, talk about it if you want, continue talking about it 20-40 years after the fact if you're inclined - if it's still something that's in the public consciousness and there's a medium through which to do it there's nothing surprising about someone doing so.

TLC > Raiders!!!

 

[TaliBane]

See this is where I feel like Ducky when he reads PT hate or the ROTJ criticism in the SWIX thread the past few days. What films were you all watching, you're all wrong, why can't you just enjoy them like I do. I just understand that everything that has happened before will happen again and has always happened. If you guys do not hold objective truth then neither do I and nor will the people after me. Like what you like, don't like what you don't like, talk about it if you want, continue talking about it 20-40 years after the fact if you're inclined - if it's still something that's in the public consciousness and there's a medium through which to do it there's nothing surprising about someone doing so.

TLC > Raiders!!!

My 1999 self, standing stunned outside Mann Chinese on TPM opening night, wants to step through time and slap you and your objective truth.

Even in the context of the disaster that is the ST, the true scale of which is now visible as its toxic 9/11-style dust cloud (containing hundreds of chemicals corrosive to SW and SW fans) clears.

But re: ROTJ, about a third of it (the actual portion for me varies from 30% to 50%) is on-par with the best of ANH and ESB, and that's more than enough using today's standards.

And I can watch TLC - it has enjoyable parts and I come close to accepting it as part of an "OT of Indy."

 

[xipotec]

I understand folks no enjoying the silly adventure that was TLC. I however still love the film and it’s definetly one of my guilty pleasure. Same with BTTF2 and 3 for that matter. (Hell , I even enjoy much of Jaws 2).

While none of these ever comes close to the original films . I still think they are decent I’m their own way. I never expect sequels to come anywhere close to the original. I cannot think of one that ever has, except the outlier ESB. It’s almost like folks have this curse on the having seen ESB at the wrong age , and since then expecting the same quality sequel for every film since then.

And 40 years later they are STILL expecting this miracle.

I have no doubt Indy 5 will not live up to Raiders. I doubt it will live up to TOD or TLC......it probably won’t live up to KOTCS......but here many of us are debating if it will be any good.....of course it won’t. But we will all see it regardless. I’m a desperate plea to revive our childhood theater experiences.

Even if it came close to being a great film, our jaded world views would knock it down a peg anyway. It’s just not the 1980’s anymore guys, and this affects not only us, but the people making the films as well.

Hell, the late 1980, want even the 1980’s.....we had serious magic going on in Hollywood at that time......unfortunatly, the originality and free filmmaking was co opted by the money people.....and it’s gotten worse and worse every year to the point where we are now. Lucky to get 2-3 decent films every 5 years.

 

[jye4ever]

Raiders has the same balance of comedy as most adventures - maybe 80% serious, 20% comedic or more light-hearted.

TLC almost seems to reverse that, where it becomes hard to take what's happening onscreen seriously. Compare the ROTLA truck chase with the "Daaad!!" TLC sidecar chase.

And while some of TOD's FX were bad (Jaws cave...,) TLC is just chock full of scenes that 100% feel like a studio set with a bunch of costumed actors on it. That castle sequence is pretty bad in all regards, right down to the Looney Toons coils of rope around the Joneses in the chairs.

TLC was the first Indy movie that to me also really didn't feel like I was actually watching a real period and place: TOD has its Velveeta throughout, but many sections do feel like you are in 1930s India etc. Raiders obviously excels in this regard - transporting you to a time and place. TLC feels bogus from the silly River Phoenix get-go (who the hell cast that Scooby-Doo line-up of opening sequence dolts? And gotta love a red-faced fat kid) all the way to the silly "step of Faith" ending.

But oh, poor Brody - from edgy friend who warns Indy in ROTLA what he's getting into to the sweaty early alzheimers comedy of TLC. And where the hell was Connery getting in some kickass Bond moments in the second half alongside his son - this was nearly a decade before The Rock. Instead he's this total ninny who whines and acts like a stupid grandpa, not the architect of the whole grail quest they are on.

Just as ROTJ was setting the stage for the off-the-cliff trajectory of the PT, you can clearly see in TLC the seeds of KOTCS and perhaps... Indy 5.

Damn that’s a pretty epic post.

Sorry a-dev

 

[jye4ever]

In a two-week period in 1989, two of my most favorite franchises hit an iceberg (Ghostbusters II was two weeks after TLC) and then months later, BTTF2 sunk yet another one.
From there it was like the St Valentine's Day Massacre: Gremlins 2, Predator 2, Robocop 2, (not a fan of Die Hard 2 either)...

Something changed in that latter 80s/early 90s period.

Truer words have never been spoken