Has a level of artistry been lost in the collectibles world, or am I just growing tired of the hobby?

[ShadowGuardian]

Hello freaks!

There have been a lot of controversies in the collecting world over the past year, especially with specific companies from what I've seen. Recently, Prime 1 Studios announced a re-release of their ever so popular grails of the 1/3 Hush Batcave Batman, and 1/3 Hush Superman, but they will just be scaled down to 1/4 this time around. This discussion isn't really about that, but it was the catalyst for my line of thought after reading various opinions on this forum, the statue forum, and facebook. Coincidentally, I've also been sorting through a lot of old photos over the holidays which includes many of my past collections. I've been writing descriptions for each photo, and so I've been thinking a lot about why I sold different pieces, why I bought them in the first place, etc.

Lets not kid ourselves: these companies are businesses and it has always been about making money. It's not a charity. BUT, unless my perspective is skewed, I feel like there used to be more emphasis on putting out quality "art" pieces in addition to the $$$. Quality craftsmanship from individual sculptors/painters could shine through more, and there would be certain pieces where it was clearly evident that a lot of time and thought had gone into the original design. Now, that's not to say this never happens anymore of course, but it feels more rare. When is the last time you bought a piece that made you think "wow, clearly a lot of passion was put into this release to ensure it's done to perfection?"

I feel like the game has changed. These things are not NEW for the hobby, but they seem to be more prominent: an increase in re-releases, an increase in mediocre variants, an increase in rushed releases with glaring issues, oversaturation of certain characters across the board, higher production numbers (so a drop in quality), lack of honouring limited edition numbers or outright no longer doing limited edition numbers, etc. On top of ALL of this, prices are at extreme highs and the "bang for your buck" value has diminished significantly. Obviously with this last point, a lot of it can be blamed on the global economy, but I think some of the price increases have been motivated by greed too (again they aren't charities, but it's still frustrating especially when IMO quality has dropped off sharply).

I think a lot of the collectible market has also been directly influenced by the way the general movie/tv show landscape has changed, as a constant onslaught of mediocre content will directly result in a constant onslaught of mediocre collectibles. There has been a loss of craftsmanship in creating quality, limited edition collectibles, and a loss of craftsmanship in constructing well-thought out films and television shows with a clear passion behind them. ESPECIALLY with Disney, it's always the popular "flavour of the week," and then immediately on to the next thing. A lot of franchises are not left to rest, or have a defined conclusion, which makes them unsatisfying. This translates to the collectibles, naturally.

I still love the idea of collecting, but my general life priorities have changed so I rarely put money down on pieces now. At the same time, I feel less involved in the hobby because I have become more frustrated with it, and I feel that it is less worthwhile to drop my hard earned cash on a statue these days for many of the reasons I listed above. Do you guys agree? Especially those that have been in this game for 10 years+. Or am I just blowing things out of proportion? Curious as to where this discussion could go.

 

[ZE_501]

Well...you kinda answered your own question. It's a combination of the near-inevitability of priorities changing (there are lifelong collectors but even they go through periods of dormancy even if they keep their collections) ... and the economic/media landscape factors you mentioned.

I've seen this across the board (music, fashion, collectibles) over the last 30 or so years. When things are truly niche and limited, it's more likely to be special in terms of passion and audience.

Things blow up, become more accessible and popular, inevitably they get diluted. There's usually this peak, a sweet spot where an influx of new people brings with it resources, attention and money -- we see really exciting things -- and then a decline, slow or fast, obvious or not ... but a decline.

Looking at it through the lens of one-sixth scale action figures, it's the best of times and the worst of times. Quality is generally very high with some incredible stand-outs, but companies have (predictably and understandably) sold out, the new fans are less discerning, and everything is more expensive without necessarily being special anymore.

I try to remember what I'm passionate about (or was passionate about) won't resonate with most of the newer, younger generation so there's my personal bias to take into account as well. Life moves on.

 

[BACON!]

For me I will always choose quality over a certain character. The real under the radar Asian companies continue to get my attention with their amazing designs like Black 13 Park, Underverse and Studio Sundowner. I have enough licensed characters. I am looking for execution of true imagination now

 

[ZE_501]

For me I will always choose quality over a certain character. The real under the radar Asian companies continue to get my attention with their amazing designs like Black 13 Park, Underverse and Studio Sundowner. I have enough licensed characters. I am looking for execution of true imagination now

You've left behind the Top 40 sell-outs and gone underground.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

Lets not kid ourselves: these companies are businesses and it has always been about making money. It's not a charity. BUT, unless my perspective is skewed, I feel like there used to be more emphasis on putting out quality "art" pieces in addition to the $$$. Quality craftsmanship from individual sculptors/painters could shine through more, and there would be certain pieces where it was clearly evident that a lot of time and thought had gone into the original design. Now, that's not to say this never happens anymore of course, but it feels more rare. When is the last time you bought a piece that made you think "wow, clearly a lot of passion was put into this release to ensure it's done to perfection?"

I feel like the game has changed. These things are not NEW for the hobby, but they seem to be more prominent: an increase in re-releases, an increase in mediocre variants, an increase in rushed releases with glaring issues, oversaturation of certain characters across the board, higher production numbers (so a drop in quality), lack of honouring limited edition numbers or outright no longer doing limited edition numbers, etc. On top of ALL of this, prices are at extreme highs and the "bang for your buck" value has diminished significantly. Obviously with this last point, a lot of it can be blamed on the global economy, but I think some of the price increases have been motivated by greed too (again they aren't charities, but it's still frustrating especially when IMO quality has dropped off sharply).

I see some push/pull to all this.

Before I left the hobby for many years, I picked up an Enterbay loose Leon/The Professional headsculpt on Ebay. Also his storage case and his milk cut fold and paste cartons. I couldn't justify spending for the entire boxed set. But if I had the head and case, I could sort of cobble something together. The headsculpt is/was amazing. When I came back into the hobby, looks like Redman or some knock off brand just released Leon again. Looks like the same molds, just lesser quality than Enterbay.

And frankly, it makes me happy to think people who wanted Leon could get one. Or in my case, maybe finish the most of one I had from long ago.

Same with Watchmen. HT made Comedian and Silk Spectre. But no Rorshach. But a knock off brand made him. I'm glad for Alan Moore fans that it came out. So sets that are clearly lesser than Hot Toys kind of quality are out there, but they are filling a niche. Some brand just made some Heat figures. And while I'm not a huge fan of them overall, the Pacino headsculpt ( Lt Vincent Hanna) is great. It's really well done.

A poor QC knockoff brand like Redman is still going to be leaps above many private customizers. I hate to say it, but it's true. Often cheaper, without the waiting and let's be honest, without the high risk of being ripped off.

Rereleases and variants are just ways to try to recoup on creating new molds. Sideshow did that with the Babysitter zombies, remember them, there was like 4 different variations of her. There was a smaller brand, Toy Soldier, on the military side of the hobby, IIRC, back in the day, someone who did distributor stuff for him talked about how insanely expensive was to set up industrial grade molds for stuff. I've always taken a guess that the new Sideshow body type ( circa 2009 ish I think, around the time of Crystal Skull) helped to kill the GI Joe line.

Where I agree with you is bang for the buck. Price points are much higher now, and the way to help offset that is to shove more accessories in the box. However HT no longer has a full time military line to spread out reuse of it's gear. This is where Dam Toys has some advantages. Their Gangster Kingdom line is supported sometimes by stuff they make for their military lines.

I think part of the problem for private customizers is that knock off brands are making figures for licenses that HT wouldn't touch and touching subjects that have slowly wiped out any practical niche for private artists. Do I personally want a figure from the TV show Titans? Not really on my end, but someone made one, and that's one more set where a private customizer can't compete with knock off brands on most levels to make a Dick Grayson/Brent Thwaites. Anton from No Country For Old Men is another kind of niche figure that private customizers could capitalize on in the old days, but IIRC, there are two brands that made two versions of him. How do you compete with that?

I appreciate the customizers in our hobby and the level of skill and artistry they show. But again, I can't say this enough, while some are really honest and have high integrity in their business, many ended up being thieves. Chris Howes and Josh Church did how much total damage to every honest customizer out there? People get burned once and never do it again. Never commission anything again. A lot of people quietly took a wait and see approach. I.E. why get ripped off, just wait and see if some knockoff brand makes the figure instead. For much cheaper. That they can get through a regular dealer. Where they don't need to source 10 different parts from 10 different sets to cobble together what they need.

I appreciate good art. I really do. But in the context of our entire hobby, over time, private artists are just not reliable enough on a mass scale to avoid just rolling the dice and waiting for a true commercial release/knockoff.

If you are inferring in how the hobby has become less organic as it was in the beginning, then I agree. I think a lot of what was lost was hunting for stuff and being OK with being disappointed sometimes. It's like when people went to the video store to rent VHS tapes to watch a movie. If it was a hot new movie, you might need to wait months to see it. Because it would never stay on the shelf long enough for most people to get it. Or the video store only had 15 copies of it or something like that. Now you can see anything you want almost instantly. A lot of the fun from the hobby has been beaten out of it. The timing of our hobby lined up with the masses having access to the internet. But much of how the early internet was free and like the wild west, it too has become more sterilized by algorithms and monetization of everything. So it's not just our hobby that has seen this shift.

It's an interesting topic, I thank you for starting it. Happy New Years.

 

[BACON!]

You've left behind the Top 40 sell-outs and gone underground.

Yes, I have done that with music as well. I also collect vinyl records.
Authenticity > representation

 

[Rondesmo]

10 years ago the hobby was fun and recreative.
You could get awesome stuff for a great price.
Now everything is outrageously expensive.

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

It’s easy to walk on by stuff, if it’s the 10th tread of a character, or a lazy attempt

 

[Masao]

Saturation and focus have hurt the hobby. Too many licenses for the same 2 dozen characters kills the spectrum of characters as well as limits choice of subjects.

Sadly, collectors still clamor for Indiana Jones, Batman and Star Wars. Making the same characters the focus of the companies wanting to make a profit.

Only companies looking for a niche will find the other properties.

None can sell what no one wants.

It does make the situation difficult for private customizers to compete or even to produce. With the advent of 3d printing, sculptors are effectively dinosaurs.

Artistry still exists, but the mercenary nature of collectors have made the hobby into a competitive marketplace for commodities rather than the acquisition of of beautiful works to enjoy.

Let's not forget that any item made by a single artist is art.

If it takes a development team, it is just an other product.

 

[Rondesmo]

I think you perfectly summarized the situation.
« Saturation »
10 or 15 years ago, there were few great items and you really enjoyed them as grails. It was really a special feeling to own them.
Now there is always something new, a 2.0, a re-release etc… a new slap in the face of the original collectors.
If you add the social networks, YouTubers, reviews, unboxing, crazy prices, crazy shipping fees… well, it’s madness…

 

[MeatHookGekko]

None can sell what no one wants.

It does make the situation difficult for private customizers to compete or even to produce. With the advent of 3d printing, sculptors are effectively dinosaurs.

Artistry still exists, but the mercenary nature of collectors have made the hobby into a competitive marketplace for commodities rather than the acquisition of of beautiful works to enjoy.

Customizers can still adapt. There are still "niches" in the hobby.

I used to know someone who made custom 1/6th Predator masks. They would fit over the faces of the HT AVP Predators. Most of the time, they were unpainted, but sometimes they were sold as painted. I talked to him a decent amount in the old days. His general viewpoint on customizing was he'd only do one commission at a time. He would not take more than one at any given point. And until he shipped the stuff to the person finished and got feedback on it, he wouldn't entertain any new customers. And he only produced enough to pay for "the hobby" for himself, not to try to make it a full income or a partial income source.

One of the major bread and butter zones for customizers used to be headsculpts. Now on Ebay, you can find headsculpts for all kinds of themes and franchises that you couldn't before.

But for example, if someone made something "similar" to a 1/6th Beskar spear and a 1/6th "Dark Saber" unpainted and put it on Ebay ( don't think anyone could get away with selling that here), that's a niche market. Lots of people don't want to pay 50-70 bucks for a HT Dark Saber parted out ( Not a criticism of our surviving loose parts dealers, they don't set boxed set MSRP/price points and they have to do the best they can given the situation)

A Blade I "conversion kit" would likely sell ( The vest, submachine gun and shotgun from the first Blade film, so that people with a Blade 2 can do a hot swap and make a Blade 1 figure)

A set of heads from Predator I ( Blaine, Mac, Poncho, Hawkins, Dillon, etc) would sell

And basically guns. There is an entire range of difficult to find 1/6th guns, that would sell well if "remade" The revolver from HT Harley Quinn ( Chiappa Rhino) , if done clean, would sell.

Whole figure commissions? I don't see the market there anymore.

Filling the "gaps" where the brands miss? I think there's still room. Just a bit smaller and leaner.

But there's no doubt in my mind, any customizer who wants to make stuff that sells, the reliability of "guns" in our hobby and the secondary market price points they garner offers pure cost certainty.

Maybe it's not as sexy as making a fully formed custom figure. But anyone who wanted to become the "gun guy" for customizers is going to get paid.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

This is not quite the rig that John Wick used in JW2. However you get the general idea. The HT Wick figure didn't come with any holsters. No spare magazines. No outer belt. If someone made a custom set of that, there's a market for that.

Here's my take on it. Customizers who do commissions have always been "gap fillers" ( that sounds way more notorious with the quotation marks..... ) Over time, those "gaps" have gotten smaller. But IMHO, they are still there. Now whether the time spent, materials, blood and effort are worth the potential sales cost and return, I don't know.

Now here is where the conversation gets fuzzy. Customizers typically "lift" off a preexisting license or known franchise. They aren't likely paying a "fee" for doing that. Or have the permission nor rights. I'm really not trying to get into the rights and wrongs of that here, in so much as saying most of the stuff that will sell will be related to preexisting known movie character, etc, etc. I'm bringing this up because at some point, someone might say I'm softly suggesting the violation of someone else's IP/license/whatever. And I'm not trying to reach into that part of the issue. People can hash that out for themselves any way they wish. I respect everyone's viewpoint.

For the sake of general theoretical conversation and hypothetical discussion, I'm just talking about what would actually sell and if there's a market for it.

 

[Rotfish]

I think there used to be a greater (or perhaps tighter) sense of community back in the old days. When the audience and companies were smaller, things like Spooktacular felt more intimate. Now such events are corporate, faceless, and frequented by so many people that you don't get a chance to know who you're experiencing them with. The days when you could expect Sideshow's CEO to pop into Spook chat -- a non-existent feature now -- are long gone.

Having that said, it's hard to comment on the "artistry" component. Whether a piece is inspired, accurate, or high in detail depends on the commitment of the artist(s) and the company for which they work. That's always been the case. And the collectibles today generally have loads more detail than those of yesteryear. ShadowGuardian mentioned Prime 1. The reissue of their 1/3 Big Chap Alien was quite controversial, but no one can deny it's the most detailed mass-produced Alien statue ever made and among the most accurate. The greater number of collectors who can now own it doesn't change how impressive it looks.

 

[potato]

i have learn to acknowledge the fact that collection is really meant for the resourceful and wealthy. small collections are good for anyone but not medium or big collection. it is easy to spend money buying stuffs the hard part is finding places for them and their god damn boxes and the maintenance required.

even if you keep them dust free you most likely cant spend so much resource on the boxes so they end up in basement or attics and eventually deteriorates. paper materials are the hardest to maintain in tip top condition. sneakers would disintegrate over time. cars will break down. fashion stuffs will go bad or discolor. watches will eventually break down esp digital ones.

unless you have the money and resource for SOMEONE ELSE to maintain your collection i really suggest you keep them at most 3 detolf full of whatever you collect (unless it is bully stuffs like cars bikes or baseball bats then keep them small) and spend the money for your own enjoyment like better food, nice earphones, comfy bed or something that you can really have a good use on and rest of money on some investment and for rainy days.