HBO: The Last of Us

chrisstbh said:

It did, because he destroyed it. Have you played or seen Part 2? Because the lie isn’t what she was most bothered by.

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No where did I say the lie was what she was most bothered by. I didn't even mention it in the post. All I'm saying is that if Joel tried harder he could've gotten through to her and at least helped her understand his perspective and not hate him, helping them coexist together. She doesn't have to forgive him to do that.

chrisstbh said:

His reason doesn’t matter. Both he and the Fireflies were wrong for different reasons.

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His reason absolutely matters. In the grand scheme of things there wasn't a right answer in terms of his options, but as a Father it was the right one. Explaining his reasoning would help tremendously.

From what was shown in both games I don’t think it would have made much of a difference.

chrisstbh said:

From what was shown in both games I don’t think it would have made much of a difference.

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That one of my biggest issues with the game. They don't have him at least try to explain it.

Jman101010 said:

This just isn't true. She doesn't have to be happy with his decision or thank him. She could've at least tried to listen and understand his perspective. If he gave a good explanation of what the Fireflies did to her and him, his options and the questions behind creating the vaccine and if she actually listened she could've at least understood his decision. She doesn't have to be happy about it or forgive him, but their relationship didn't have to be destroyed.

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Ellie's anger at Joel always felt forced IMHO. An inkling I've always gotten is that Neil Druckmann despises the Joel character. The Tiger Woods moment just came off like someone flipping the bird to everyone who loved Joel.

Druckmann just seems like the kind of guy who gets into a shouting match at a farmers market on a Saturday morning because they ran out of the organic produce he likes, and he wants to blame them for him being late to his Soul Cycle class. I watched a few interviews with the guy, and he just strikes me as someone, if he wasn't making video games, would be trying to sell me a membership to Orange Theory. I've met guys like that all my life. They can't get out of their own way. They can't just sip their mineral water in peace in some dark corner of a room in silence.

I could definitely see myself getting into a fistfight with Druckmann in some parking lot somewhere. He'll try to distract me by throwing a brick into a corner. Then I'll punch him and wonder why he didn't just hit me with the brick.

Is Ellie's anger authentic to her character development? I guess people can feel either way about it, I will say it struggles to line up IMHO with the bonding that Joel/Ellie made once they faced off with the cannibals. I felt that was a major turning point in both accepting the good and bad about each other. That good or bad, at least they were together and had each other. My perception of Ellie's anger takes away some of that, so I don't see a seamless fit. Others will probably differ.

TLOU2 just had lots of parts that IMHO didn't fit together. Ellie's anger at the lie was something I felt was part of that. I suppose there's something to be said if there's a Part 3 or Part 4 where Ellie herself becomes a parent, and she has to take the "Joel" role and see how hard it was for him.

Whatever flag you want to wave - whether you like Part I, II, or both - these are the hard facts. (Part I numbers were released from Naughty Dog directly as of December 2022).

Part I is now at 37 million copies (continuing solid sales, which obviously peaked again after recent remake and tv show).
Part II is at about 10 million (endlessly on sale and bargain bins, and sales have become virtually non-existent).

Critic score isn't even worth taking into account as most of them are shills, and at the end of the day, money talks, ******** walks, and those user scores, combined with the sales figures, talk volumes.

User scores:
Part I - 9.2
Part II - 5.8

Nuff said.

MeatHookGekko said:

Ellie's anger at Joel always felt forced IMHO. An inkling I've always gotten is that Neil Druckmann despises the Joel character. The Tiger Woods moment just came off like someone flipping the bird to everyone who loved Joel.

Druckmann just seems like the kind of guy who gets into a shouting match at a farmers market on a Saturday morning because they ran out of the organic produce he likes, and he wants to blame them for him being late to his Soul Cycle class. I watched a few interviews with the guy, and he just strikes me as someone, if he wasn't making video games, would be trying to sell me a membership to Orange Theory. I've met guys like that all my life. They can't get out of their own way. They can't just sip their mineral water in peace in some dark corner of a room in silence.

I could definitely see myself getting into a fistfight with Druckmann in some parking lot somewhere. He'll try to distract me by throwing a brick into a corner. Then I'll punch him and wonder why he didn't just hit me with the brick.

Is Ellie's anger authentic to her character development? I guess people can feel either way about it, I will say it struggles to line up IMHO with the bonding that Joel/Ellie made once they faced off with the cannibals. I felt that was a major turning point in both accepting the good and bad about each other. That good or bad, at least they were together and had each other. My perception of Ellie's anger takes away some of that, so I don't see a seamless fit. Others will probably differ.

TLOU2 just had lots of parts that IMHO didn't fit together. Ellie's anger at the lie was something I felt was part of that. I suppose there's something to be said if there's a Part 3 or Part 4 where Ellie herself becomes a parent, and she has to take the "Joel" role and see how hard it was for him.

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I see we share a similar affection for the Duckman.
One thing I found very odd with him though. In an interview I watched (I forget which one), he claims that since he created Joel, no one loved that character more than him. Which just makes it even more weird that he did what he did with Part II, just to push his own crappy idea of a story.

The series is even better on a re-watch. Apart from Bill and Frank which still feels self-indulgent the longer it goes on.

With a second play through I noticed more subtleties in the acting. Ellie's plaintive cry stood out when Henry shoots himself. The change in Joel to the point where he becomes so detached it barely looks like Pedro's acting.

I also counted the number of times Ellie whacked the cannibal with the meat cleaver after jumping on top of him. Twenty-one!

On my first watch I couldn't have been paying attention as I missed the three headless corpses hanging upside down in the shed.

Bella may not be the physical impression of prime Ellie, but she was a great choice in terms of acting. I went back and rewatched the bleak British drama, Two for Joy (2018) the other day. It was Bella's movie debut, playing a troubled and borderline psychotic teen.


After whacking the cannibal twenty-one times and Ellie staggers out of the burning building to be grabbed by Joel, there's a great piece of acting as she gradually realises it's him. It culminates in the transformative moment when Joel hugs her, and says, "It's okay, baby girl, I got you. I got you."


My only criticism is that the series was too short, especially when incorporating so much extra material that focussed on other characters.

After the re-watch I watched the 'Making of' that came out last month.

They said they spent a lot on the episodes, and from some of the massive sets I can see why. Much of the scenery and special effects were practical, yet almost everything was enhanced with CGI.

I also found HBO's TLOU podcasts, which run for over seven and a half hours, which is great because I recently discovered that listening to audiobooks on the tablet at night was a great way to send me to sleep!

Listened to the first four of the Troy Baker hosted podcasts.

Druckmann and Mazin go into depth about not only the connections between the media, but also the symbolism of the characters and events in the series.

The Bill and Frank episode drew comparisons between Bill and Joel, and Frank and Ellie. The former are protectors, and both closed off characters, until they meet the person that draws them out of themselves.

Druckmann didn't expand on it, but he made the point that the fact that Ellie found Frank's gun had significance - which ties back to her similar role to Frank.

It's also significant later, after Ellie shot the hijacker, when Joel decides to train her to use the pistol. It's the moment he begins to assume the role of a father again, something he'd avoided committing to because he didn't want to expose himself to the anguish of potential loss again.

As with the games there's a lot going on under the surface.

I’m aiming to watch the show later on. I was piqued by TLOU when I stumbled upon some videos about the infection, and then I watched a six-hour cinematic cutscene of the video game and man it was good! Looking forward to binging the show!

Zurdo95D said:

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This gets me every time.

Both Ashley Johnson and Neil Druckmann confirmed in the podcast that Ellie doesn't believe Joel.

Ashley Johnson: "She knows he's lying. Like she feels it, she doesn't know the extent of it, but something's off. So it's like it's not choosing to believe the lie, or it's just okay, the rest our relationship is gonna be a little different."

Asta said:

This gets me every time.

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IKR?? Evry tiem

Asta said:

Both Ashley Johnson and Neil Druckmann confirmed in the podcast that Ellie doesn't believe Joel.

Ashley Johnson: "She knows he's lying. Like she feels it, she doesn't know the extent of it, but something's off. So it's like it's not choosing to believe the lie, or it's just okay, the rest our relationship is gonna be a little different."

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Yep!! Also when I watched the game cinematic and Ellie started speaking, I was like “She sounds familiar“, and of course recognized AJ in the role lol

Asta said:

This gets me every time.

Both Ashley Johnson and Neil Druckmann confirmed in the podcast that Ellie doesn't believe Joel.

Ashley Johnson: "She knows he's lying. Like she feels it, she doesn't know the extent of it, but something's off. So it's like it's not choosing to believe the lie, or it's just okay, the rest our relationship is gonna be a little different."

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I feel like it's obvious, but people lack media literacy these days so everything needs to be spelled out for them.

chrisstbh said:

I feel like it's obvious, but people lack media literacy these days so everything needs to be spelled out for them.

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To me the acting always conveyed the true intention, which is why TLOU 2 feels completely connected: there would always be tension in the relationship between them going forward. Anything less would've undermined the power of TLOU.

Zurdo95D said:

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That is how Joel left Ellie...

Are they still planning to make another season? Feels like this is something to get the ax.

Wor-Gar said:

Are they still planning to make another season? Feels like this is something to get the ax.

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They’re already committed to Season 2, it’s HBO Max’s most viewed show of all time and HBO wants more of it. Not sure why it’d get cancelled.

chrisstbh said:

HBO Max’s most viewed show of all time

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Really? What is "of all time" for Max?

Just read that Season 2 is indeed is moving ahead.