- you realise that it's a tv show with only 10 hours per season? (And less after season 6) You don't see EVERYTHING they ever say after returning to winterfell. I'm sure they had a conversation offscreen about their dead brother, which is not necessary for us to see at that point because the time is better spent talking about characters we knew and loved like Ned Stark.
No they didn't because its not real. Its a TV show. What we see is all there is. If the show never bothered to have its characters react to an "important" death then that is a failure of the show. I shouldn't have to invent scenes to artificially create an emotional payoff for them.
- Jon charged in because he loved his brother. Jon has a big heart and if he didn't charge in, that would just not fit his character at all. Was it dumb from a military leader point of view? Yeah, so what.
So what, the point I made was to counter your claims that Jon won the BOTB and retook Winterfell - militarily he endangered his army by making an idiotic mistake.
Here is the scene where they establish how important it is that they don't abandon their position -
Was it in character? Yes. But has nothing to do with my point or your original claim I was responding to.
Sansa on the other hand, refused help from Littlefinger until the last minute and didn't even tell anyone about it. She did f@#k all, she sat on a horse while her stalker brought an army to win the battle for her.
Sansa tried to appeal to Jon that they needed more men to win the BOTB (she was right) and Jon angrily brushed her off and didn't even let her TALK about getting more allies.
here is the scene -
Sansa was the one who got Littlefinger involved and without him/his army Jon and everyone would be dead - thats the facts, so she didn't do "f@#k all" whether you like it or not SHE won the BOTB, not Jon.
Jon absolutely did more than anyone, he killed a ridiculous amount of people with his skill in combat, he talked his army of wildlings into fighting with him and they said yes because he is a good man who inspired them. Without them, and him, winterfell would not have been retaken.
He is one man, and no matter how good he was - did he win the battle? did he turn the tide? his army were slaughtered and was about to be finished off when Sansa and her allies arrived and saved them.
Do you see how few wildlings/etc are left here before Sansa and Littlefinger arrive?
Sansa won the BOTB - YOU might not like it, but thats the facts.
He also demolished Ramsay in a 1v1
Inconsequential - he is one man. Cool scene but by then the Battle had been won by the Vale's forces. Same could have been accomplished by 10 soldiers v 1 Ramsey.
- That's because he knew exactly what the Lords would say and he knew they were wrong and that he needed Dany and her dragons to win. The Lords are all pretty clueless on the dead until season 8, Jon knew it was all that mattered because if they weren't ready they would end all life.
Moving the goalposts. You said Jon deserved to be King in the North, I said that he absolutely didn't because he immediately surrendered Northern independance. Whether he was right to do so is another issue.
A good king would have explained and consulted them anyway - to just do so unilaterally is what makes Jon a poor king and we see the proof in the Northern lords begin discussing replacing him with Sansa.
- Jon assembled the army's to fight the dead.
His biggest contribution was convincing Dany (as I have already said) but he didn't do this alone, other characters joined in convincing her and it wasn't something ONLY HE could have done.
Jon was at the center of the battle at hardhome.
which was a massacre.
Yes he witnessed the NK power, but so did others.
Jon got them dragon glass.
It was Sam who discovered Dragon Glass kills White Walkers/wights.
Jon warned everyone he could about the dead.
Yes he did, as did Melisandre, Sam, Tormund and other characters.
Also Jon wasn't the only guy who survived Hardhome.
Without him, there literally would have been ZERO defense and no army to fight the dead.
Not true.
He was on his dragon killing wights and waiting for his chance to take out the night king because he knew that the battle against the dead was unwinnable unless they killed the night king. What's the best chance at taking him out? By getting him in the sky with his dragon, which he tried to do
And failed.
Its your claim that he lead the battle and your implication that without him they would have failed. I merely pointed out that the result would have been largely the same.
- seriously, did you even watch season 6?
You keep turning a little nasty with your comments and there is no need for it.
If Jon stayed dead, wildlings never fight Ramsay's army. The Knights of the Vale would be the only army. They won because Ramsays army was already cut down a significant amount by the wildlings.
No, if you watch the episode its clear that the wildlings are easily outclassed in the battle and that the majority of the Bolton army is intact. the Knights did the majority of the work. This is just like when someone claims they "loosened the lid" for you, its nonsense.
If The Knights of the Vale outnumbered Ramsays army, he never would have met them in the open like he did with the wildlings. He would have just stayed in the castle.
Resulting in a siege which they would win.
He met Jon's army because he thought they had no chance of winning.
Which they didn't. Jon doesn't get credit for his bad decisions being rectified by other characters doing the smart thing FOR him.
Utter nonsense. The Knight say in the next season that "The Knights of the Vale rode for YOU my Lady" not Jon Snow (they make a point of saying they are loyal to her and not Jon, that they only showed up at the BOTB for her not Jon).
Without Sansa = no Knights = no victory = Jon and all the Wildlings dead, Winterfell belongs to the Boltons.
- Ridiculous. I've already explained how without Jon there would have been NOBODY READY FOR THE DEAD. It would have been an extinction event.
No you ASSERT it, you do not EXPLAIN it.
- Arya was there because of Jon retaking winterfell. Arya only got a shot at taking him out, and only knew how to take him out, because Jon came back to life.
This is clutching at straws now.
How hard is this to understand???
You are being intensely condescending and there is no need for it.
You can have a debate without being nasty.
Jon coming back changed everything. Let's say Jon stayed dead: Ramsay still owns Winterfell
And Sansa is at Castle Black and has the ability to call her Knights to fight for her - allowing her to take Winterfell.
Numbers for the BOTB is the same minus 2000 Wildlings that got slaughtered due to Jon's own incompetence in abandoning their position.
So hay! We are now up 2000 wildlings + 1 giant for the fight against the NK, probably down a few more of the Knights but certainly not 2000 given that they would lay siege to Winterfell and not meet Ramsey in an open field.
Arya is off trying to murder Cersei
Arya returns to Winterfell for the same reason - she hears from Hot Pie that Sansa has taken Winterfell and is now Queen in the North. She would return no matter which of her siblings rules there - its her home and her family has it back.
and nobody even has a clue who the Night King is, apart from Tormund and the wildlings
And the rest of the Nights Watch, and Stannis and his Red Priestess.
who nobody would even talk to without Jon leading them.
This is the first thing that IS unique to Jon Snow is his bond with the Wildlings.
Now they weren't exactly pivotal to the final outcome, but it is true that no other wanted/could make an alliance with the remains of the Free Folk.
Arya played her part, but she was able to play that part because of everything Jon had done.
No. You are ascribing FAR too much agency to Jon Snow here, she was there and did what she did through her own agency and the will of R'hllor who made it so by having Dondarrion sacrifice himself so she and Melisandre could meet.
Hell, LITTLEFINGER had more to do with Arya killing the NK than Jon did by virtue of bringing the Catspaw dagger with him to Winterfell.
- Again, already answered in my several points above what Jon did. And how without him, nobody would even stand a chance or have any clue what to do.
Again this is a massive overstatement at least and just outright untrue at worse. Characters knew who the NK was, the threat he represented, assembled their armies and were prepared to defeat him without Jon's influence.
- Jon Snow is an underdog. Just because he eventually, after six seasons, finally had good things happen to him like becoming king in the North doesn't take that away. He won that title because he was the underdog. He defied expectations and became far more than the bastard of winterfell through courage, bravery and sheer will. He never gave up. And he lost it all and ended up exiled at the end for the same reasons. Rocky Balboa became heavyweight champion of the world at the end of Rocky II, and he's literally the greatest underdog in cinematic history.
You misunderstand me here. My point is that Jon stops being an underdog - not because he rises above - that is a classic part of the underdog trope, but rather because he rises above through no agency of his own. He is rewarded for his bad decisions. Things just "work out" for him with no real input from himself. Wins the BOTB despite undermining their strategy because Sansa turns up and saves him. Is made KITN despite not winning the BOTB, expressing a wish to be KITN, or demonstrating any political skill whatsoever. Isn't killed for killing Dany because Tyrion gave a speech. etc etc.
If Jon's tactical knowledge won the BOTB, if he was the one who united the North through political skill then he would be a worthy KITN, if he killed the NK then he would have fulfilled his long built character arc, if he was the one to address the council and convince them (mostly Grey Worm) to spare him then those would all be HIS victories thorugh HIS agency and he would be an underdog triumphant.
But he didn't. It was given to him and once a character has success given to them through no agency of their own then they are no longer an underdog.
Early seasons Jon was an underdog because he himself earned his own victories.
