Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

Felinx said:

Watching that show made me think that ROTJ would have been noticeably better had George's separation/divorce from Marcia been just 2-3 years later. Marcia seemed to be the background force that pulled in George's more silly or overtly commerce-oriented ideas and grounded things more.

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I think it's important to remember that George started his actual filmmaking career with THX 1138. That movie can be called a lot of things, but "silly" and "overtly commerce-oriented" should not be among the descriptive terms. In fact, Marcia herself has said that the blame for that film not resonating better had to do with George's nature and how it's so different from hers. As she put it:

"I never cared for THX because it left me cold. When the studio didn't like the film, I wasn't surprised. But George just said to me, I was stupid and knew nothing. Because I was just a Valley Girl. He was the intellectual."

He then went on to make American Graffiti, and what's particularly interesting about that film and its success (according to Marcia) is what George was trying to prove. Again, in her own words:

"After THX went down the toilet, I never said, 'I told you so,' but I reminded George that I warned him it hadn't involved the audience emotionally...He always said, 'Emotionally involving the audience is easy. Anybody can do it blindfolded, get a little kitten and have some guy wring its neck.' All he wanted to do was abstract filmmaking, tone poems, collections of images. So finally, George said to me, 'I'm gonna show you how easy it is. I'll make a film that emotionally involves the audience."

So... George's nature and interests in the early years wasn't to go for easy commercialism, and he didn't have a predilection for "silly" components in his storytelling. In fact, when it came to Star Wars, Marcia again credited herself with steering George in a more populist direction by keeping him from cutting things that he felt were *too silly* (like Chewie's growl at the mouse droid).

He ended up embracing more of a commercial approach to his storytelling because it was easy. Making tons of money and becoming a legend in the industry probably became more and more intoxicating. Especially with his friends making hugely successful films and human nature being to not want to fall behind one's peers. And fatherhood likely had an impact on his filmmaking goals as well. But I think people in the modern day (especially online) have twisted who George Lucas was by conflating him with who he became.

I won't disagree with anyone who says his filmmaking got increasingly sillier and more commercially driven, but I see that as almost an entirely different version of the man who made THX, Star Wars, and Empire. In fact, I see ESB as a huge artistic risk because it was such a stark departure in so many ways from the commercially proven winner that was ANH. The easier thing to do would be to follow the same formula.

I think Marcia may be taking a little too much credit. But clearly her and Kurtz helped steer Lucas' brilliance toward a better light.

He was extremely innovative in his early years. A genius some might say. THX was as much a test of editing style, sounds and images replacing dialogue. He followed that line of thinking up in Star Wars with pacing style. I was always fascinated when I read somewhere that he said he wanted to push editing and sound to its limit and see just how many frames a shot had to be to work. At that time, the battle over the Death Star was mesmerizing in how fast the cuts were. It may not play today, but in its time, a 1 second shot of Vader's tie SCREAMING past camera, then cut to inside Luke's cockpit with that hollow wind sound and beeping, then cut to the ROAR of his engines, then the beeping of Vader lining up a shot, then three TIEs SCREAMING toward us -- it was amazing madness; this jarring blast of visuals and sounds constantly and abruptly changing. It was EXCITING! The ADD generation wasn't even here yet but Lucas was way ahead of the curve.

Neat!

Zurdo95D said:

Neat!

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Cute story but nobody needed to go sit in a theater with a flashlight "taking notes" for hours on end when packs of these were readily available at any random gas station or convenience store:

Let's see TJ now.

Khev said:

Cute story but nobody needed to go sit in a theater with a flashlight "taking notes" for hours on end when packs of these were readily available at any random gas station or convenience store:

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Lol

I wish I could go back in time to watch the OT in the cinemas back then, it must've been quite a cultural event to witness/be a part of.

I was too young for Star Wars and Raiders, but I saw ESB, ROTJ, Temple of Doom, Ghostbusters, Gremlins, Goonies, etc. in the theater as a little kid. Some of the best times of my life!

Otomofan said:

I was too young for ...Raiders, but I saw ESB...

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LIAR!!!!

I'm telling on you.

Wor-Gar said:

Let's see TJ now.

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That TJ is actually surprisingly easy to find online -- and here she is...

TJ Burnside Clapp ... she was promoted to Princess now.

Zurdo95D said:

Lol

I wish I could go back in time to watch the OT in the cinemas back then, it must've been quite a cultural event to witness/be a part of.

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It was mate, it's hard to describe just how utterly mind-blowing it was when it first came out. I was 7 at the time and can still remember the Star Destroyer seemingly flying over my head at the start of the movie, the battle on Tantive 4 , Darth Vader's entrance, wondering how the Stormtroopers fitted into their armour? The music, the sound of the blaster bolts, the aliens into the cantina, Chewie being the coolest best friend I had ever seen or could even imagine. I was used to Doctor Who, Star Trek and the Adam West Batman show so Star Wars seemed utterly real and magical. Happy times

ESB had a theatrical re-release shortly before ROTJ...that's when I got to see it. It even had a teaser trailer for "Revenge of the Jedi" that played before the movie. I'll never forget it.

I saw ROTJ on opening day. My dad let me skip pre-school. I was only 5....I couldn't read the subtitles when Jabba was talking!

Felinx said:

Something major began between Raiders and ROTJ. Of course Marcia and Gary Kurtz were excised from Lucas' orbit. But something fundamentally changed in Lucas. Whether it was the crystallization of hubris, the formulation of Lucas in his own mind as a bonafide "genius" (at this point Star Wars had only just moved beyond simply a very popular movie and sequel to something timeless and way bigger, and the success of Raiders as a new cultural phenomenon raised the bar) or simply the more mundane psychological realities of becoming a father and an artist approaching 40 is unclear.

This trajectory led to - in its infancy - ewoks and the mishandling of Han/Leia and Luke/Vader (from boring to clunky to goofy.) The mid period was Temple of Doom, still one of the strangest follow-ups to a true classic film ever. What it rapidly led to, Howard the Duck, Radioland Murders, and more importantly the earnest promise that Skywalker Ranch was intended as a haven for experimental filmmakers (as opposed to the exact reverse - facilities and accomodation for post/FX of mega studio productions such as the MCU) is the landscape we are discussing.

This was the context for the lead-up to the special editions (the oft-quoted "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians" - George Lucas, Congressional testimony 1988) and of course the prequels. The work of an isolated and hopelessly arrogant man wholly believing a conceptualization of himself minted in that Raiders-to-ROTj period despite the magic, the edge, having long ago left the building. Lucas' video diary of beginning the writing of Episode I is still one of the worst examples of out-of-touch hubris in any field.

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Well, one thing that's pretty clear about that period between Raiders and ROTJ is that George got burned out. We know that he abandoned an ambitious multi-part SW arc in favor of condensing it and abruptly ending it all with ROTJ instead. Was the burnout part of a larger change in him? Or, was the burnout the change itself that everything else spilled out of? His output after that was like him trying to replicate the magic equation with less effort. The increase in the silliness quotient was proportionate to the decline on the narrative depth side, almost as if that shortcut was a deliberately measured calculation. But that's just my Occam's razor explanation to try to make sense of the decline.

I agree with you about how sad the video evidence of the Episode I script-writing process was. But what bothered me wasn't something that I interpreted as hubris; rather it was what I perceive as lack of passion. Potentially a carryover from his early 80's burnout and not wanting to commit himself that way ever again. He was churning out scripts for the PT like a brilliant high school student who had procrastinated too long on his term papers but knew he was gifted enough to get by with whatever he could come up with right before the deadline. Lucasfilm simply needed that infusion of revenue again.

What I find most objectionable from all of that is how the process resulted in taking his defining story of a farmboy embarking on his own uncharted path (much as George did from his agricultural Modesto roots), rebelling against the status quo, and refusing to accept a destiny shaped by lineage... and then flipping it on its head by reframing it all as part of the inevitable outcome of a "Chosen One" prophecy. Throw in midichlorians dictating who plays what role, and the shift in central theme was/is jarring to me. Bothers me a lot more than the uptick in accompanying silliness and juvenile vibes. But an entire generation now seems to embrace what he did, so I might just be out of touch while Lucas was one step ahead once again.

I don't think you're out of touch. I don't think the new generation really thinks about it in any kind of depth. It's just processed. Like cellphones or video games -- use it, lose it, and move on to the next level.

Part of the reason for that is also the sheer volume of excess that is Star Wars. In the early days, there was very little so we all obsessed over a small amount. Now, it's literally endless.

Wor-Gar said:

Part of the reason for that is also the sheer volume of excess that is Star Wars. In the early days, there was very little so we all obsessed over a small amount. Now, it's literally endless.

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That right there is one of the reasons I'm embracing Andor almost exclusively going forward. Take the highest quality work that I find most satisfying and enjoy the concluding Season 2 after a long wait, much like the long waits between OT movies. Makes SW feel that much more special to me again. And I'm fine with all the other stuff being around for everyone else; not gonna intermingle with Andor, and I can ignore it easily.

ajp4mgs said:

In fact, I see ESB as a huge artistic risk because it was such a stark departure in so many ways from the commercially proven winner that was ANH.

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It boggles the mind that we went from this:



to this:



Yeah I know there was the Holiday Special and Ewok movies but those were never "all hands on deck/continue the Saga with the highest quality possible" endeavors like the OWK show was supposed to be.

OWK? Why'd you say that name!?

Khev said:

It boggles the mind that we went from this:

to this:

Yeah I know there was the Holiday Special and Ewok movies but those were never "all hands on deck/continue the Saga with the highest quality possible" endeavors like the OWK show was supposed to be.

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At least the intentionally absurd Austin and Mini Me only had one pair of feet coming out of their bulging coat.

But, yeah, your larger point is well taken. It speaks to what Wor-Gar was saying about the assembly line of endless content that SW has become. Not only do these releases lose that "special" feeling of being rare treats, but the desire for quantity will often compromise story integrity. It's just not enough of a priority. That awesome ESB sequence with the AT-ATs was the result of constructing imaginative designs to suit the (already solid) story purpose. But nowadays, it's almost always about constructing story to fit the (already solid) components. Backwards and not good.

If I had told you ten years ago that there would be a 4+ hour show about Obi-Wan and Vader, with a Disney budget and the Lucas-era actors, that no one would be talking about anymore just *months* after it finished airing, you probably wouldn't have believed me. Yet here we are. They're okay with SW being disposable entertainment now, even with the most sacred of characters and context. But to be fair, plenty of fans seems perfectly okay with just getting more and more.

ajp4mgs said:

At least the intentionally absurd Austin and Mini Me only had one pair of feet coming out of their bulging coat.

But, yeah, your larger point is well taken. It speaks to what Wor-Gar was saying about the assembly line of endless content that SW has become. Not only do these releases lose that "special" feeling of being rare treats, but the desire for quantity will often compromise story integrity. It's just not enough of a priority. That awesome ESB sequence with the AT-ATs was the result of constructing imaginative designs to suit the (already solid) story purpose. But nowadays, it's almost always about constructing story to fit the (already solid) components. Backwards and not good.

If I had told you ten years ago that there would be a 4+ hour show about Obi-Wan and Vader, with a Disney budget and the Lucas-era actors, that no one would be talking about anymore just *months* after it finished airing, you probably wouldn't have believed me. Yet here we are. They're okay with SW being disposable entertainment now, even with the most sacred of characters and context. But to be fair, plenty of fans seems perfectly okay with just getting more and more.

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Sad but so, so true.