Marvel's Antman and the Wasp: Quantumania

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ironwez20 said:
I saw some plot leaks from that show and I have no idea why it’s being made. I blame those idiots that made that stupid song popular.
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In America, in households with full families, in 4 out of 5 of those, the primary decision maker for consumer purchases is an adult woman.

Usually the mother.

The MCU markets to women because of their massive purchasing power as a collective. However America's birth and marriage rates have been falling like a rock for a very long time. There will be a large scale shift in disposable income in future generations. In 10-15 years, you'll see far more middle aged men, never married and never having kids, many whom are not going to be home owners either, who have a ton of disposable income with no plans for retirement. ( Lots of young people today don't think our society will make it that far, and can you really blame them for that? )

Then you'll see a larger shift to what adult middle age men want, because their purchasing power will be seen as more impactful as an aggregate.

So I can blame Kevin Feige on one hand, and I can't blame him on the other hand. He has no control over cultural, social and government forces at work long before he was born to shape this current system. On the other hand, he's intentionally picking identity over battle tested storytelling convention. It's tried and true for a reason.

I don't mind most core premises. The pitch for something like Memento would sound nuts just on paper. But it works. It's really innovative for it's time and still has longevity today.

Mostly it comes down to the writing. If Agatha is well written and well casted, then it has a chance. If it's not, then it won't.

Veronica Mars should have failed. If you break down the plot, it sounds like any number of gutless mindless WB/CW/tween shows, but I thought it was fantastic.

Where I can see some real axes to grind is giving shows to these fringe characters and not doing something more with core characters. I dislike Ruffalo, but even I understand why a Hulk show or a Hulk movie makes more sense than something like Echo. ( But maybe it's the rights issue again)

I'd rather see a TV show about Bucky Barnes than Agatha, Echo, etc, etc. Also the bait and switch is getting pretty old. It's called Loki but it's not really about Loki, it's about chick Loki instead. It's called Hawkeye but it's not really about Barton, it's about new teen upstart chick Hawkeye. It's called Dr Strange 2, but it's really a Wanda movie with some BIPOC tween mixed into it all plus a ton of cameos.

Disney has a pretty clear marketing strategy. Sell crack. But package it in bottles of urine first. It's not enough to give people crack. They want to make people fish it out of pee, just so they can make sure everyone knows who is boss. It's stupid. But will change as more young men become middle aged men with more money and more disposable income and the typical American family unit becomes extinct.
 
MeatHookGekko said:
What should be concerning is the way the MCU is structured today, they would never make the first Iron Man the way it actually ended up.

On the other hand, I can't quite blame Feige for striking while the iron is hot. Everything has a limited window of opportunity. As soon as JJ Abrams made Star Trek in 2009 and it was a huge commercial and critical hit, he just kept his foot on the pedal and cashed in before most people would realize he had absolutely no idea what he was doing.
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Lol - feels like Feige had the MCU mapped out - through Endgame only. Phase 4 was terrible except for a couple properties and has felt pretty much like the Matrix movies after the first Matrix. Quantumania seems bleh.
 
Marvel must be in panic mode with their movies not tracking at all like with phase 1-3. Remember the hype build up during phase 1-3 it was off the charts insane!

Now…pfft.

It’s so bad that even blue cats beat it with hype and box office after a 13 year hiatus lol
 
The problem is that everything is both too bloated and too drawn out, while being utterly boring. Phases 1-3 had mini arcs building off one another while Thanos was in the background. Phase 4 had absolutely no relevance on anything, and Klawng is being forced everywhere. The worst bit that even in the case of the one character who could theoretically be forced and make sense, they're still doing it wrong. It's completely astounding how hard they're failing at the simplest things.

Also, recent rumours (which I hope are bull) are that Klawng's the guy who translated the Darkhold and scattered it everywhere. Because Gog forbid we have characters not tied to him. Seriously, Magic? Klawng's literally stealing EVERYTHING about Doom. Kang never had magic. That's what made Doom dangerous. Kang was a thief using tech and hax. But no, we've got to give him magic to one-up Thanos for... reasons. Oh, and as per the recent leaks (the entire dialogue leaked from a subtitle file), Klawng's got a "noble cause" too. The main one will be the Quantumania version who is trying to kill all his other selves because they're reckless and will destroy the multiverse with their infighting. So, just to recap:
  • He's already offed multiple Avengers team off-screen so his core characteristic of coming back to this era to test himself against the legends is completely gone.
  • He's not a dick with a time machine, he's actually a multiversal conqueror, expanding his influence to the point where everything becomes meaningless.
  • The main goal of the main variant is literally to become the clown we saw Fem!Loki stab. So they're going to spend 2 Phases technically building up to the guy who already got killed. Obviously there'll be a twist and Klawng will steal more from Doom by becoming the God Emperor, and as per leaks this incarnations being called The Beyonder, thereby having Klawng steal yet another thing.
  • The one character who's been literally everything from a human to a squid alien is going to be played by the same guy in all incarnations.
I think they've utterly lost the plot. They're crashing this and decided to pay this Z-Lister they're pushing peanuts instead of going the proper way and hiring multiple actors, some newcomers some prestige ones, to play different variants. Immortus is supposed to be the older Kang with gravitas. And what did they do? They got the 30-something guy to be clowny. Kang ages very slowly, so Immortus looking old is a major plot point in that it shows you how long he's been doing this and is juxtaposed with the main Kang. It highlights just how messed up time is for him. Immortus is not just a codename, it's the endpoint, and why Kang tries so hard to avoid it, to the point where he messes up timelines.

Moreover, it'd obviously require more thought on how to weave Kang into the various stories instead of just spamming him, so why bother? Eternals could've easily been tied to Kang and Namor. You want Atlanteans? Base them off the "Sea Peoples" that decimated the coastal nations near the end of the Bronze Age Collapse and base their clothing and culture off Phoenicians. Start the movie with a massive invading force rising up from the seas and cut to the various mythological figures established in the MCU barely pushing them back. I mean ancient Moon Knight and the other Avatars refusing to fall, Thena striking them down in Greece, some dude with the rings of power on China's coast alongside an actual dragon (Iron Fist setup), and have the whole thing end with them getting sent back to the ocean by the MCU version of Agamotto showing the full force of the Sorcerer Supreme and declaring that the two worlds never shall meet. Kang's Rama-Tut was the Pharaoh who opposed them at the time. Apocalypse was there too. The Brotherhood Of The Shield was founded then. BAM! I just connected Namor, the Eternals, Iron Fist/Shang-Chi (depends on which on you want to push), Moon Knight, the X-Men and Kang. All character from Phase 4. But what did we get? Nothing. That's what we got. Wanda's Wacky SitCom, the Eternal Jobbers, Moon TimeWaster, Loki's Simping Adventures, Clown Kang, Twerking Fem!Shrek, and "Wakandans Ft. Bendis' OC Vs. Literally An OC Aztec". Wow, such great stuff that totally flowed from one project to another!

I'm angry again. God, I hate these things. And I hate myself even more that I can't just take everything I own, throw it in a huge fire and be done with all this nonsense...

DetailedBoringHumpbackwhale-size_restricted.gif
 
Victοr said:
The problem is that everything is both too bloated and too drawn out, while being utterly boring. Phases 1-3 had mini arcs building off one another while Thanos was in the background. Phase 4 had absolutely no relevance on anything, and Klawng is being forced everywhere. The worst bit that even in the case of the one character who could theoretically be forced and make sense, they're still doing it wrong. It's completely astounding how hard they're failing at the simplest things.

Also, recent rumours (which I hope are bull) are that Klawng's the guy who translated the Darkhold and scattered it everywhere. Because Gog forbid we have characters not tied to him. Seriously, Magic? Klawng's literally stealing EVERYTHING about Doom. Kang never had magic. That's what made Doom dangerous. Kang was a thief using tech and hax. But no, we've got to give him magic to one-up Thanos for... reasons. Oh, and as per the recent leaks (the entire dialogue leaked from a subtitle file), Klawng's got a "noble cause" too. The main one will be the Quantumania version who is trying to kill all his other selves because they're reckless and will destroy the multiverse with their infighting. So, just to recap:
  • He's already offed multiple Avengers team off-screen so his core characteristic of coming back to this era to test himself against the legends is completely gone.
  • He's not a dick with a time machine, he's actually a multiversal conqueror, expanding his influence to the point where everything becomes meaningless.
  • The main goal of the main variant is literally to become the clown we saw Fem!Loki stab. So they're going to spend 2 Phases technically building up to the guy who already got killed. Obviously there'll be a twist and Klawng will steal more from Doom by becoming the God Emperor, and as per leaks this incarnations being called The Beyonder, thereby having Klawng steal yet another thing.
  • The one character who's been literally everything from a human to a squid alien is going to be played by the same guy in all incarnations.
I think they've utterly lost the plot. They're crashing this and decided to pay this Z-Lister they're pushing peanuts instead of going the proper way and hiring multiple actors, some newcomers some prestige ones, to play different variants. Immortus is supposed to be the older Kang with gravitas. And what did they do? They got the 30-something guy to be clowny. Kang ages very slowly, so Immortus looking old is a major plot point in that it shows you how long he's been doing this and is juxtaposed with the main Kang. It highlights just how messed up time is for him. Immortus is not just a codename, it's the endpoint, and why Kang tries so hard to avoid it, to the point where he messes up timelines.

Moreover, it'd obviously require more thought on how to weave Kang into the various stories instead of just spamming him, so why bother? Eternals could've easily been tied to Kang and Namor. You want Atlanteans? Base them off the "Sea Peoples" that decimated the coastal nations near the end of the Bronze Age Collapse and base their clothing and culture off Phoenicians. Start the movie with a massive invading force rising up from the seas and cut to the various mythological figures established in the MCU barely pushing them back. I mean ancient Moon Knight and the other Avatars refusing to fall, Thena striking them down in Greece, some dude with the rings of power on China's coast alongside an actual dragon (Iron Fist setup), and have the whole thing end with them getting sent back to the ocean by the MCU version of Agamotto showing the full force of the Sorcerer Supreme and declaring that the two worlds never shall meet. Kang's Rama-Tut was the Pharaoh who opposed them at the time. Apocalypse was there too. The Brotherhood Of The Shield was founded then. BAM! I just connected Namor, the Eternals, Iron Fist/Shang-Chi (depends on which on you want to push), Moon Knight, the X-Men and Kang. All character from Phase 4. But what did we get? Nothing. That's what we got. Wanda's Wacky SitCom, the Eternal Jobbers, Moon TimeWaster, Loki's Simping Adventures, Clown Kang, Twerking Fem!Shrek, and "Wakandans Ft. Bendis' OC Vs. Literally An OC Aztec". Wow, such great stuff that totally flowed from one project to another!

I'm angry again. God, I hate these things. And I hate myself even more that I can't just take everything I own, throw it in a huge fire and be done with all this nonsense...

DetailedBoringHumpbackwhale-size_restricted.gif
Click to expand...
:thud: :thud: :thud:
 
jye4ever said:
Marvel must be in panic mode with their movies not tracking at all like with phase 1-3. Remember the hype build up during phase 1-3 it was off the charts insane!

Now…pfft.

It’s so bad that even blue cats beat it with hype and box office after a 13 year hiatus lol
Click to expand...
Well we all know why. Who tf is excited to see the eternals?
 
Victοr said:
I mean ancient Moon Knight and the other Avatars refusing to fall, Thena striking them down in Greece, some dude with the rings of power on China's coast alongside an actual dragon (Iron Fist setup), and have the whole thing end with them getting sent back to the ocean by the MCU version of Agamotto showing the full force of the Sorcerer Supreme and declaring that the two worlds never shall meet. Kang's Rama-Tut was the Pharaoh who opposed them at the time. Apocalypse was there too. The Brotherhood Of The Shield was founded then. BAM! I just connected Namor, the Eternals, Iron Fist/Shang-Chi (depends on which on you want to push), Moon Knight, the X-Men and Kang. All character from Phase 4. But what did we get? Nothing. That's what we got. Wanda's Wacky SitCom, the Eternal Jobbers, Moon TimeWaster, Loki's Simping Adventures, Clown Kang, Twerking Fem!Shrek, and "Wakandans Ft. Bendis' OC Vs. Literally An OC Aztec".
Click to expand...

I swear sometimes I read your stuff but only see a foreign language.
 
MeatHookGekko said:
In 10-15 years, you'll see far more middle aged men, never married and never having kids, many whom are not going to be home owners either, who have a ton of disposable income with no plans for retirement.

But will change as more young men become middle aged men with more money and more disposable income and the typical American family unit becomes extinct.
Click to expand...

Wow... that's the future? A world of incels? In this world of yours, I see more women getting hired than men, and men's suicide rates skyrocketing so... we're back to women making the choices.
 
Wor-Gar said:
Wow... that's the future? A world of incels? In this world of yours, I see more women getting hired than men, and men's suicide rates skyrocketing so... we're back to women making the choices.
Click to expand...


The ideal for the MCU is old school Pixar.

Films that appeal to kids but there are clear and dedicated storylines and fan service for adults as well.

I really enjoyed the first Incredibles. It had a lot to say about parenthood, family, expectations and handling disappointment. There were also fun elements that would naturally be attractive to kids and how kids typically operate and think.

I absolutely positively understand wanting to not alienate any of the major blocks of potential viewers. But compounding onto these IPs is the issue of merchandising. Which is a huge financial windfall if done right. Alienating young men and hard core comic purists is a huge hit on the merchandising bottom line as well.

The real answer is both simple and complex at the same time. Too much is coming out too fast and there's no real quality control anymore. Andor worked because Tony Gilroy stewed over that for a very very very long time ( well relative to these other Disney products coming out) The stuff Mike Flanagan does ( Hill House / Midnight Mass) works because he's really putting in the effort and time to make sure the end result is polished.

If the majority want a more refined and thoughtful and introspective MCU, you need far less being pumped out by the same level of manpower and money being put into fewer key licenses and stories.

But the longer you wait, your window closes. The DCEU wasted many years with a window to maximize Cavill as Superman.

We are getting "product", not real storytelling. Old school Pixar was legitimate storytelling. The limitations of technology forced a much slower pace, which allowed for more refinement. Now that you can pump out a lot of mediocre CGI, it's almost turned into a shotgun strategy. Just keep hosing the viewing public down with enough buckshot and maybe you'll hit something at some point.

But yes, the demographic shift in viewership is a coming reality. But more than just raw ratings numbers, also those with the most disposable income and within their prime earning years.

What is the average age of someone here at SSF? In their 40s to 60s? The current MCU is NOT built for us. It's built for our children. But no amount of marketing and hype and working the algorithm is going to overcome bad storytelling.

Lots of people here are disappointed in a middling product not designed for them.

Old school Pixar was a formula that worked. Let's see if Feige can find that path again.
 
Disney use to take great pride in animation and art and now it’s all about money. Lol they better not unfreeze Walt or else he’s going to have a heart attack seeing they let people of all color into Disney land. Oh and he’ll get mad at Disney being corporate too I guess.
 

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