Star Wars: Andor (September 21st, 2022)

a-dev said:

I felt the show was too much of a departure in tone from even the more serious movies like Empire and Rogue One - and therefore I have trouble reconciling it with anything that came before.

It certainly wasn't an embarrassment like so much of the PT, the ST, BOBF and Obi-Wan but for different reasons I equally would not be in a hurry to watch it again. That's just me.

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I probably shouldn't even bother with this question, given your keyboard issues, but I'll give it a shot anyway: Do you find the departure in tone between Andor and the OT to be much more dramatic than that between Terminator and T2?

Those two films are different enough in tone that they could easily be categorized into slightly separate genres (sci-fi/horror vs. sci-fi/action), yet I have no trouble reconciling both narratives as part of the same in-universe story. Andor and the OT work the same way for me. Andor is bleaker sci-Fi/suspense and the OT is lighter sci-Fi/fantasy, but the events portrayed still feel organically unified to me. If we took the battle of Hoth and stretched out into a 12-episode series. I can't imagine that'd be much lighter in tone than Andor.

I guess I'm trying to pinpoint what specifically makes Andor irreconcilable with the OT for you. It'd be much easier for me to understand if we were talking about Andor versus the PT, or a much bolder distinction like that which exists between the first Thor movie and Ragnarok, but I don't think Andor departs anywhere near that much from the landscape established by ANH and ESB. I'd like to better understand why you think otherwise (willingness and keyboard permitting, of course ).

I also love that they resisted the temptation to sneak any fan service cameos into the finale. No Palpatine, Vader, Bail Organa, etc. They spent 12 episodes developing the protagonists and antagonists and had the confidence and devotion to those characters to let them see themselves to their own conclusions without having to lean on anyone outside of this particular story. Bravo.

Though the mention of Bail makes me chuckle at Mon Mothma's wisdom to keep him out of the loop of all of her current schemings. I can only imagine the disaster that Bail's long distance buffoonery could have caused up to and including Mothma herself being captured and executed before the Rebellion even began, lol.

Browsing through this thread, I gather the overwhelming positive response makes this out to be another great Star Wars installment! I'll definitely add this to my to-watch list!

jye4ever said:

Epic post by ajp (as usual) and I agree for the most part BUT……

I’m not willing to throw out Mando S1/S2 which was already miles better than the PT/ST.

Yes Andor is everything ajp and others have said and I love every second of it for those exact reasons but i’m just not ready to throw out Mando S1/S2 because of Andor’s new mature tone therefore I am still looking forward to Mando S3 to continue providing the swashbuckling aspects of SW that I enjoy BUT it better be Mando quality swashbuckling and not BOBF quality god that show was embarrassing lol

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Andor is the only SW show I need not because it's more "adult," but because it doesn't undermine itself and the OT with any cartoonish stupidity. But it could've had a much lighter tone and still accomplished that. I think the Kenobi show was going for a more adult tone; it just doesn't seem that way to anyone because it was infected with a bad case of the stupid. That just comes down to quality. Gilroy and his team are just better at storytelling, and by a very wide margin, IMO.

The "phone call" in episode 11 between Syril and the chubby Scottish dude was lighthearted, playful, and even silly, but it didn't take away from how serious Cassian's plight was, or how seriously Syril was obsessed with hunting him down. The same is true for their little "cap exchange" during the finale (onboard their flight to Ferrix). It was charming/endearing levity that helped keep the overall vibe from getting too monotonously heavy, but it didn't undercut the drama in doing so. Much like how C-3PO's silly histrionics while strapped to Chewie's back didn't undercut how serious the stakes and danger was for Han as he was about to face potential death by freezing.

But contrast those bits with Obi-Wan sneaking Leia under his coat, or Boba Fett chasing a rabbit droid around a kitchen, or Scout Troopers being turned into a meta joke by repeatedly missing shots at a stationary can. These things undermine the credibility of the various characters/factions and undercut the stakes across the entire fictional conflict. These are just small examples, but the full list would go on forever.

Then there are things that I object to far more, like over-the-top Force powers and Imperial leadership being clueless idiots. That's the stuff that tears away at the fabric of the originals and undercuts too much of the seriousness for me to want to include them in personal canon. Andor, on the other hand, didn't compromise anything from the the SW that I consider sacred. But it's a subjective/personal preference thing for me, and I get why the other shows work for other fans.

ajp4mgs said:

Andor is bleaker sci-Fi/suspense and the OT is lighter sci-Fi/fantasy, but the events portrayed still feel organically unified to me. If we took the battle of Hoth and stretched out into a 12-episode series.

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I basically agree though I might suggest that it's more the events of Cloud City stretched out over 12 episodes what with so many people in Andor looking at what they considered to be the greater good and therefore feeling forced to play both sides to varying degrees even if they did ultimately favor one over the other. This show had Landos all over the place doing their best to thanklessly help where they could even if it meant having to betray or outright sacrifice some of those who they felt morally or personally aligned with.

Zurdo95D said:

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Nice poster though Andor's Bryar Pistol became such an iconic visual part of this series, the later sniper rifle feels out of place in that image.

Cassian's regret at how things ended between him and his adoptive mother and the pain of her loss gives so much more insight as to why when push came to shove he couldn't take the life of Jyn Erso's one remaining parent.

He also repeated the kindness of his one buddy telling him that his mother's final message was that she understood and loved him by later telling Jyn that her own father would have been proud in their final moments together.

Khev said:

I basically agree though I might suggest that it's more the events of Cloud City stretched out over 12 episodes what with so many people in Andor looking at what they considered to be the greater good and therefore feeling forced to play both sides to varying degrees even if they did ultimately favor one over the other. This show had Landos all over the place doing their best to thanklessly help where they could even if it meant having to betray or outright sacrifice some of those who they felt morally or personally aligned with.

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My bad; I hit the period key instead of the comma (I guess a-dev isn't the only one having keyboard issues ). It should've read: "If we took the battle of Hoth and stretched it out into a 12-episode series, I can't imagine that'd be much lighter in tone than Andor."

I wasn't comparing the narratives of the Andor series and the Hoth battle, but rather just taking an important slice of the OT to imagine stretching it out in order to compare how the tone would play out relative to how Andor is a stretched out slice of the same central SW conflict.

My point being that focusing primarily on the Rebellion/Empire dynamic makes the harsher tone appropriate (if not necessary) in Andor, and could believably play out along those same tonal lines if the Hoth plot was turned into a series.

The OT is a fun ride in totality, but the central conflict is a somber and serious one. If the sequences on Hoth were explored in greater depth, it would demonstrate that. From the harsh and desolate locale of the Rebel base full of people who have been constantly on the run and hiding, with its bunkers and monitoring stations full of those people being very much on edge, to the personal sacrifices made in the scramble to evacuate, to the gritty battle itself... that stuff is pretty bleak.

The biggest factor keeping it from coming across in a more pronounced way is the character of Han and his unique personality. Take Han away and you don't get the crackling exchanges with Leia and Threepio that break the tone. Cassian is no Han, and neither are any of the other Andor characters, so we get what ANH and ESB often felt like (to me, anyway) when Han and the droids weren't lightening it up.

ajp4mgs said:

My bad; I hit the period key instead of the comma (I guess a-dev isn't the only one having keyboard issues ). It should've read: "If we took the battle of Hoth and stretched it out into a 12-episode series, I can't imagine that'd be much lighter in tone than Andor."

I wasn't comparing the narratives of the Andor series and the Hoth battle, but rather just taking an important slice of the OT to imagine stretching it out in order to compare how the tone would play out relative to how Andor is a stretched out slice of the same central SW conflict.

My point being that focusing primarily on the Rebellion/Empire dynamic makes the harsher tone appropriate (if not necessary) in Andor, and could believably play out along those same tonal lines if the Hoth plot was turned into a series.

The OT is a fun ride in totality, but the central conflict is a somber and serious one. If the sequences on Hoth were explored in greater depth, it would demonstrate that. From the harsh and desolate locale of the Rebel base full of people who have been constantly on the run and hiding, with its bunkers and monitoring stations full of those people being very much on edge, to the personal sacrifices made in the scramble to evacuate, to the gritty battle itself... that stuff is pretty bleak.

The biggest factor keeping it from coming across in a more pronounced way is the character of Han and his unique personality. Take Han away and you don't get the crackling exchanges with Leia and Threepio that break the tone. Cassian is no Han, and neither are any of the other Andor characters, so we get what ANH and ESB often felt like (to me, anyway) when Han and the droids weren't lightening it up.

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Absolutely! And even if you ignore the more dark and serious ESB for a moment and focus more specifically on ANH there's a fair bit of implied horror of what's going on even in that film that is either glossed over in dialogue from Tarkin or Leia or just glimpsed ever so briefly like the aftermath of the Lars homestead. Little offhand comments about the Senate being disbanded permanently or seeing the remains of Owen and Beru really sent my young (and later adult) mind off into fascinating and morbid imaginings of how all of those bleak events might have played out. Andor shines a light on a lot of those aspects of SW that aside from ANH, ESB, and RO had been previously unexplored. Hell even the often silly ROTJ had its own implications of Andor-esque bleakness with Mothma's little reference to dead Bothans.

'C-C-C-Cassian!'
https://collider.com/andor-b2emo-voice-pupeteer-tony-gilroy-comments/

Reading through the last few pages it's interesting the "debate" over Andor fitting with the OT or not.

For me, if you went through Ep 4 and edited out all the Imperial scenes (taking note of the scripting, acting, etc), and then inserted them into an Imperial scene from Andor, I think it would be absolutely seamless (other than the obvious production value, modern cinematography techniques, etc).

The dialogue between Tarkin and the rest of the Imperials at the table about The Emperor dissolving the senate, is very much on par with the Imperials in Andor. So by extension, the rest of Andor fits with that tone, dialogue, feel, and so on.

Same with Ep 5, and most Ep 6.

One thing about the finale that someone else mentioned: I found myself hating the Imperials in a new way. In the OT and Rogue One I rooted for the good guys but didn't actively hate the bad guys -- not like this.

When Dedra was getting mobbed I *wanted* to see that character suffer because she was *evil* and *deserved it*. I cheered when Cinta gutted that Imperial. I found the stormtroopers firing into a mostly unarmed crowd loathsome.

Good job on the writing and acting to get me to feel like that towards antagonists I've seen on screen for decades in one form or another.

ZE_501 said:

When Dedra was getting mobbed I *wanted* to see that character suffer because she was *evil* and *deserved it*. I cheered when Cinta gutted that Imperial. I found the stormtroopers firing into a mostly unarmed crowd loathsome.

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So true!! Especially with regard to Dedra.

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Mondragon said:

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..

Mondragon said:

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Not sure the last batch were ever posted...






And of course ...

Mondragon said:

Nice poster though Andor's Bryar Pistol became such an iconic visual part of this series, the later sniper rifle feels out of place in that image.

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Speaking of, are any prop replica creators on this. Any out there yet?
With a rotating barrel?







Or Nemik's manifesto (faux screen), would also make a great prop (for me).
That has shot up there with the Death Star plans Datacard.
Or further Dr. Henry Jones' Grail Diary as iconic narrative props.

ajp4mgs said:

I probably shouldn't even bother with this question, given your keyboard issues, but I'll give it a shot anyway: Do you find the departure in tone between Andor and the OT to be much more dramatic than that between Terminator and T2?

Those two films are different enough in tone that they could easily be categorized into slightly separate genres (sci-fi/horror vs. sci-fi/action), yet I have no trouble reconciling both narratives as part of the same in-universe story. Andor and the OT work the same way for me. Andor is bleaker sci-Fi/suspense and the OT is lighter sci-Fi/fantasy, but the events portrayed still feel organically unified to me. If we took the battle of Hoth and stretched out into a 12-episode series. I can't imagine that'd be much lighter in tone than Andor.

I guess I'm trying to pinpoint what specifically makes Andor irreconcilable with the OT for you. It'd be much easier for me to understand if we were talking about Andor versus the PT, or a much bolder distinction like that which exists between the first Thor movie and Ragnarok, but I don't think Andor departs anywhere near that much from the landscape established by ANH and ESB. I'd like to better understand why you think otherwise (willingness and keyboard permitting, of course ).

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I think Andor is an over-correction of the stuff that came out goofier than we all would have liked - namely the PT, BOBF and Obi-Wan. It was pretty much devoid of humour, quirks and swashbuckle (as Jye referred to) - replaced by intimate character study scenes that have never been part of Star Wars before and fit more in something like the Battlestar Galactica remake, The Expanse or BladeRunner - all accompanied by the most un-Williamsy of music scoring - of course you have to score to what's on the screen and what was on the screen hardly facilitated sweeping melodies, I understand that. But that goes back to the whole issue for me. They went too grounded, too serious. Consider the dialogue in this show compared to lines like ''only a Master of eeevil, Darth!'' That's the original non-Marvel Superhero iteration of a Jedi and from A New Hope no less, the classic original movie from which everything else has sprung.

And that's the core of my problem with Andor. The movies - even the best ones - are cartoons compared to this show. From their overall presentation to the content - the nature of most scenes, the acting and the lines being delivered. But the movies came first and so, as far as I'm concerned, it is they that set what ought to be the tone of Star Wars. I don't think Andor has followed it I have a feeling George Lucas would agree

As regards your T1/T2 analogy - well, understand that I was a child when T2 came out and so I wasn't thinking about 'tonal shifts' back then. Therefore I didn't notice or care at the time. I was set up to love T2 and I still do.

Perhaps I personally find it easier or more acceptable to ease into humour after having started serious* than to start with humour and the general quirkiness of the Star Wars movies but then completely strip it away (as though embarrassed by it all) and become dead-serious as they did here.

*of course this trajectory ultimately became a bad thing for Terminator, but it was at least quite effective for one sequel

But look, I'm very much aware I'm in the minority here. It's not my intention to try to turn anyone off this show, I doubt I've done a very good job at that in any case. I was asked to elaborate on my last reaction and that alone is why I'm posting again.

Mondragon said:

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The star of any Star Wars Disney show...

a-dev said:

I think Andor is an over-correction of the stuff that came out goofier than we all would have liked - namely the PT, BOBF and Obi-Wan. It was pretty much devoid of humour, quirks and swashbuckle (as Jye referred to) - replaced by intimate character study scenes that have never been part of Star Wars before and fit more in something like the Battlestar Galactica remake, The Expanse or BladeRunner - all accompanied by the most un-Williamsy of music scoring - of course you have to score to what's on the screen and what was on the screen hardly facilitated sweeping melodies, I understand that. But that goes back to the whole issue for me. They went too grounded, too serious. Consider the dialogue in this show compared to lines like ''only a Master of eeevil, Darth!'' That's the original non-Marvel Superhero iteration of a Jedi and from A New Hope no less, the classic original movie from which everything else has sprung.

And that's the core of my problem with Andor. The movies - even the best ones - are cartoons compared to this show. From their overall presentation to the content - the nature of most scenes, the acting and the lines being delivered. But the movies came first and so, as far as I'm concerned, it is they that set what ought to be the tone of Star Wars. I don't think Andor has followed it I have a feeling George Lucas would agree

As regards your T1/T2 analogy - well, understand that I was a child when T2 came out and so I wasn't thinking about 'tonal shifts' back then. Therefore I didn't notice or care at the time. I was set up to love T2 and I still do.

Perhaps I personally find it easier or more acceptable to ease into humour after having started serious* than to start with humour and the general quirkiness of the Star Wars movies but then completely strip it away (as though embarrassed by it all) and become dead-serious as they did here.

*of course this trajectory ultimately became a bad thing for Terminator, but it was at least quite effective for one sequel

But look, I'm very much aware I'm in the minority here. It's not my intention to try to turn anyone off this show, I doubt I've done a very good job at that in any case. I was asked to elaborate on my last reaction and that alone is why I'm posting again.

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I'm glad that I asked you to elaborate because this post really crystallizes some things for me that help me understand and appreciate your stance on Andor. If I perceived the tonal re-calibration in all the ways that you do, I'd probably feel just as cold about the show.

You see Andor's tone as departing stylistically from the DNA of Star Wars, not only by not having any of the lighter fare, but by going heavy on what SW used to avoid. I see Andor, on the other hand, as magnifying a facet of SW that was always there (sometimes even prominently) but never without eventually being balanced out and overshadowed by the "lighter" aspects.

As Khev alluded to a few posts earlier, many fans are irritated by ROTJ for going too silly, but if I were to describe for you how dark I interpret a major amount of that movie to be, I think you'd see why Andor's tone could never be perceived by me as much of a departure from *any* movie in the OT, much less the entirety of it.

By the way, I don't think anyone here would ever mistake you for being someone who dumps on something in order to get others to want to dump on it too. I was seeking to better understand your objections because I respect your opinion. As I stated, your response here made some things finally click for me, so I thank you for taking the time.

I still have the last 4 episodes to go… I almost don’t want to finish them cause the show will be over

a-dev said:

They went too grounded, too serious. Consider the dialogue in this show compared to lines like ''only a Master of eeevil, Darth!'' That's the original non-Marvel Superhero iteration of a Jedi and from A New Hope no less, the classic original movie from which everything else has sprung.

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See to me Obi-Wan's dialogue in ANH and ESB would have fit in a series like Andor, had he himself actually appeared. But the only reason such dialogue wasn't featured is because he didn't appear and not because it would have been out of place in and of itself. I say that because as you said you had Obi-Wan and Vader's dialogue in ANH (and ESB) but it was also intercut with WWII era fighter pilot jargon, dialogue, and appropriately unforgiving war-time stakes. Would Luthen have sounded silly saying something like "only a master of evil, Darth?" Sure. But so would have Biggs, Wedge, General Rieekan and so on.

And while the OT did juggle a myriad of tones and genres at times I do think that isolating some specific tones and genres plays better than others. Slapstick humor from 3PO might work as brief levity in ANH or ESB but stretched out over an entire movie, TV episode or God forbid a series and it ends up being ridiculous. But zeroing in on other genres that have always been a part of SW like Westerns or gritty war dramas and then expanding on them has proven to be *great* fun IMO since at its best that approach gives us the likes of RO, Andor, and the better episodes of The Mandalorian.

Anyway I get why you aren't a fan of Andor but for me when I watch something new I ask myself is it good in and of itself and then does it contradict or diminish what has come before. And for me Andor earns a resounding yes on the former and a resounding no on the latter.