**Beware SPOILERS** Obi-Wan Kenobi Series on Disney+ **Beware SPOILERS**

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I honestly think that Anakin's "I...am not...your failure" is one of the biggest and most unexpected gut punches I've experienced watching Star Wars in a long time. On the one hand it's badass that Vader is taking ownership of who he has become, on the other it's just so tragic because it simultaneously confirms how far gone Anakin is at that point. Probably the best delivered line that Hayden has ever spoken in this series and Ewan's heartbreaking reaction was absolutely flawless as well IMO.
 
Khev said:
I honestly think that Anakin's "I...am not...your failure" is one of the biggest and most unexpected gut punches I've experienced watching Star Wars in a long time. On the one hand it's badass that Vader is taking ownership of who he has become, on the other it's just so tragic because it simultaneously confirms how far gone Anakin is at that point. Probably the best delivered line that Hayden has ever spoken in this series and Ewan's heartbreaking reaction was absolutely flawless as well IMO.
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I agree with what you're saying, but it's also a great example of why this finale has such a disembodied sensibility from much of the rest of the series. I say that because one of the earlier key lines from Vader (in the third episode) was, "I am what you made me."

One episode, Vader is making Kenobi feel culpable; later Vader takes ownership. I wouldn't go so far as saying the finale was disjointed from the rest of the series, but I feel that the dialogue and writing in general were much better thought out than what came before. It adds to my desire to just regard the finale on its own and pay no mind to the rest of the series. Unfortunately, it's impossible from a practical standpoint because of all the setup and context.
 
ajp4mgs said:
A Jedi is justified in killing a combatant (Sith or not) when the scenario is kill or be killed. But when the opponent has already been defeated and neutralized in a non-lethal way, the next line should not be crossed. It's something that was directly addressed in one of the Lucas movies.

If the Jedi and Sith are mortal enemies in the way that you present it, then Anakin would've been justified in slicing Dooku's head off in ROTS. But instead, that scene was constructed to demonstrate to the audience that Anakin was a *flawed* Jedi by murdering a subdued and defeated *Sith* opponent.

The end of the OWK duel was the same scenario. A defeated Sith on his knees and at the mercy of the triumphant Jedi. If Kenobi had tried to kill Vader at that point, I think it would've contradicted the takeaway from the ROTS Anakin/Dooku scene in terms of what a true Jedi should do.

The question isn't whether or not killing a helpless and defeated Vader would make Obi-Wan a bad person. The question is whether or not it would make him a bad Jedi. Established lore says that the answer is a pretty clear "yes" to that particular question. IMO, Kenobi shouldn't be a flawed Jedi the way Anakin was.
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I don't disagree with any of that, but apparently Lucas did lol. Remember Luke's conversation with Obi-Wan's ghost in ROTJ? An excerpt:

Luke: I can't do it Ben.
OWK: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
OWK: Then the Empire has already won. You were our only hope.

So in Obi-Wan's (& presumably Yoda's) view it would have been OK for Jedi Luke to kill Vader in battle (and carry patricide baggage for the rest of his life), but it wasn't OK for Obi-Wan to defeat him in battle fairly and then finish the job? I think any other Jedi would consider it a mercy to spare their former friend of his servitude to the Emperor and the physical pain he has to endure on a daily basis. Also, while Vader was defeated he was far from helpless, a lesson Obi-Wan would have known from the last time he beat him and thought that.

IDK, I don't expect agreement on this but despite how much I enjoy Ewan's work in the role IMO this show ultimately besmirches Obi-Wan's character. He's seen firsthand the death and destruction that Vader has caused and yet in the end he doesn't man up and do what needs to be done. Better to have never made the show than to see a beloved character screw the pooch yet again. :slap
 
ajp4mgs said:
I agree with what you're saying, but it's also a great example of why this finale has such a disembodied sensibility from much of the rest of the series. I say that because one of the earlier key lines from Vader (in the third episode) was, "I am what you made me."

One episode, Vader is making Kenobi feel culpable; later Vader takes ownership. I wouldn't go so far as saying the finale was disjointed from the rest of the series, but I feel that the dialogue and writing in general were much better thought out than what came before. It adds to my desire to just regard the finale on its own and pay no mind to the rest of the series. Unfortunately, it's impossible from a practical standpoint because of all the setup and context.
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I see what you mean, though with regard to the quote you mention I took it as Obi-Wan commenting on Vader's physical state as a cyborg which Vader did hold against Kenobi, with the latter line being Anakin taking ownership for who he was on the inside, denying Obi-Wan's claimed failure to shape him before he became a cyborg "I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you."

In a perfect world the Obi-Wan finale would have been how Episode III ended so that there never would have been even a need for such a show. Episode I could have started with the events in AOTC, then ROTS as Episode II, and a condensed version of OWK as Episode III. That would have been really nice. As it stands despite the rocky road from Episodes 2-5 of OWK the series ended up accomplishing what I ultimately hoped it would do when they announced that such a production was planned.
 
The Buffinator said:
I don't disagree with any of that, but apparently Lucas did lol. Remember Luke's conversation with Obi-Wan's ghost in ROTJ? An excerpt:

Luke: I can't do it Ben.
OWK: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
OWK: Then the Empire has already won. You were our only hope.

So in Obi-Wan's (& presumably Yoda's) view it would have been OK for Jedi Luke to kill Vader in battle (and carry patricide baggage for the rest of his life), but it wasn't OK for Obi-Wan to defeat him in battle fairly and then finish the job? I think any other Jedi would consider it a mercy to spare their former friend of his servitude to the Emperor and the physical pain he has to endure on a daily basis. Also, while Vader was defeated he was far from helpless, a lesson Obi-Wan would have known from the last time he beat him and thought that.

IDK, I don't expect agreement on this but despite how much I enjoy Ewan's work in the role IMO this show ultimately besmirches Obi-Wan's character. He's seen firsthand the death and destruction that Vader has caused and yet in the end he doesn't man up and do what needs to be done. Better to have never made the show than to see a beloved character screw the pooch yet again. :slap
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I do understand where you're coming from, particularly with George's seemingly inconsistent message, but that's why (as I've said here recently) the only way his saga makes the most sense to me is if I interpret Obi-Wan's dialogue with Luke to mean something less literal.

To me, I have to believe Obi-Wan meant that if Luke isn't prepared to kill Vader in order to defend himself if need be, then it's game over. I prefer to think that Yoda and Kenobi wanted Luke to face/confront Vader, but hopefully that would rekindle Anakin's light side and fulfill Qui-Gon's belief in the "Chosen One" destiny. Maybe someday they'll flesh this out by having Kenobi/Qui-Gon or Yoda/Qui-Gon interactions where his Force ghost says to trust that all hope of redemption is not yet lost.

As for the Jedi code/values, yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. :duff
 
ajp4mgs said:
I agree with what you're saying, but it's also a great example of why this finale has such a disembodied sensibility from much of the rest of the series. I say that because one of the earlier key lines from Vader (in the third episode) was, "I am what you made me."

One episode, Vader is making Kenobi feel culpable; later Vader takes ownership. I wouldn't go so far as saying the finale was disjointed from the rest of the series, but I feel that the dialogue and writing in general were much better thought out than what came before. It adds to my desire to just regard the finale on its own and pay no mind to the rest of the series. Unfortunately, it's impossible from a practical standpoint because of all the setup and context.
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The way I saw it is that Anakin viewed his appearance - “more machine than man” - as what Obi-Wan did. The physical change was Obi-Wan handiwork.

But Vader’s birth? That was all Anakin. Anakin “died” and became Vader before he ever was disfigured by Obi-Wan. He takes ownership of THAT.
 
ajp4mgs said:
I agree with what you're saying, but it's also a great example of why this finale has such a disembodied sensibility from much of the rest of the series. I say that because one of the earlier key lines from Vader (in the third episode) was, "I am what you made me."

One episode, Vader is making Kenobi feel culpable; later Vader takes ownership. I wouldn't go so far as saying the finale was disjointed from the rest of the series, but I feel that the dialogue and writing in general were much better thought out than what came before. It adds to my desire to just regard the finale on its own and pay no mind to the rest of the series. Unfortunately, it's impossible from a practical standpoint because of all the setup and context.
Click to expand...

I took it more as;

"I am what you made me" - This is in response to Obi-Wan's "What have you become?!", a reference to his physical form. "I am what you made me" refers to his burnt, cybernetic self, as that is what Obi-Wan is clearly looking at when he asks him "what have you become?!". Obi-Wan made him that way.

However, "I am not your failure... You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker... I did" is a different reference to his choice, path, and identity as Darth Vader. He was Darth Vader already when they fought on Mustafar and he had already made the choice to go down that path. He "killed" Anakin Skywalker when he turned to the Dark Side.

So, Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker when he chose to join the Sith. Vader is telling Obi-Wan that I choose this willingly - any remnants of Anakin Skywalker have been completely suppressed and destroyed. In a way, he is saying "Don't try to appeal to me or bring me back, because that person is dead".

What Vader definitely did NOT choose and is definitely NOT taking responsibility for is being burned alive and dismembered and becoming a cybernetic monster lol. Obi-Wan made him that.

That's how I saw it anyway!
 
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Garlador said:
The way I saw it is that Anakin viewed his appearance - “more machine than man” - as what Obi-Wan did. The physical change was Obi-Wan handiwork.

But Vader’s birth? That was all Anakin. Anakin “died” and became Vader before he ever was disfigured by Obi-Wan. He takes ownership of THAT.
Click to expand...

Garlador put it much more succinctly than I did!
 
ajp4mgs said:
I do understand where you're coming from, particularly with George's seemingly inconsistent message, but that's why (as I've said here recently) the only way his saga makes the most sense to me is if I interpret Obi-Wan's dialogue with Luke to mean something less literal.

To me, I have to believe Obi-Wan meant that if Luke isn't prepared to kill Vader in order to defend himself if need be, then it's game over. I prefer to think that Yoda and Kenobi wanted Luke to face/confront Vader, but hopefully that would rekindle Anakin's light side and fulfill Qui-Gon's belief in the "Chosen One" destiny. Maybe someday they'll flesh this out by having Kenobi/Qui-Gon or Yoda/Qui-Gon interactions where his Force ghost says to trust that all hope of redemption is not yet lost.

As for the Jedi code/values, yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. :duff
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But that's just it - we don't disagree at all if we just ignore the PT and this show lol. If only Lucas would have given the fans what they truly wanted back then and made the ST instead we wouldn't be discussing this nonsense.

As usual, the PT is the at the root of everything that's wrong with Star Wars. :lol

:chase
 
Otomofan said:
View attachment 585218

Why did she only wear her hair like Mickey ears in rehearsal? Should have gone full Disney in the actual show, since they didn't give her a cool helmet or anything.

It's like poetry. It rhymes.
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Never go 'full Disney!'
1656098511781.png
 
The Buffinator said:
But that's just it - we don't disagree at all if we just ignore the PT and this show lol. If only Lucas would have given the fans what they truly wanted back then and made the ST instead we wouldn't be discussing this nonsense.

As usual, OT purists are at the root of everything that's wrong with Star Wars. :lol

:chase
Click to expand...

:chase
 
ebor said:
They need to do the next story arc--Obi wan vs. Darth Maul.

They could easily milk this and set up a Vader show ('Wanna see how I got these scars?')

or Leia and Lola ('Lola's Magical Journey to the Dark-Side')...lol

or Reva (with Bob Marley Redemption song theme) meeting cousin of Broom-boy (call it 'Gonna Sweep ya' Emprire')
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darth dennis said:
I am glad to see a few others on here who enjoyed the show, despite it's imperfections. At the end of the day, I thought it was fun, enjoyed the Obi-Wan/Leia connection, the fight scenes were excellent and the other stuff that was "off" or "questionable" didn't kill the fun for me. :duff
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Yep like all SW post-ESB it was a mixed bag but even if the quantity of bad outnumbered the quantity of good the quality of the good that was there was just so, so high.

And I've long been fine with one-off side characters that are silly or lame whether they be ewoks, Jar Jar, Rose Tico or Reva as long as they don't ruin the important characters and IMO Reva thankfully did not.
 
Garlador said:
The way I saw it is that Anakin viewed his appearance - “more machine than man” - as what Obi-Wan did. The physical change was Obi-Wan handiwork.

But Vader’s birth? That was all Anakin. Anakin “died” and became Vader before he ever was disfigured by Obi-Wan. He takes ownership of THAT.
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If he takes ownership of allowing his Vader side to extinguish Anakin, and only blames Kenobi for the disfigurement/mechanical monster part, then what was he blaming Kenobi for on Mustafar prior to being burned?

In other words, he either views Kenobi as one of the sources of his need to turn into Vader in the first place or he doesn't. If he sheds a tear at the prospect of killing those younglings, then he's acting out of duty to Palpatine and the Sith/dark side by following through regretfully. But if a short while later he has a personal vendetta against Kenobi with bad intentions and no regrets, then he's blaming Kenobi for his need to become Vader, right?

Taking complete ownership of destroying Anakin while absolving Obi-Wan seems like it's a sudden departure. If it happened only in that very moment, and we're seeing this acceptance in real time, then I can go along with your reasoning/justification. But if it's a view he had prior, then I don't buy it and it still contradicts his earlier tone.
 
The Buffinator said:
But that's just it - we don't disagree at all if we just ignore the PT and this show lol. If only Lucas would have given the fans what they truly wanted back then and made the ST instead we wouldn't be discussing this nonsense.

As usual, the PT is the at the root of everything that's wrong with Star Wars. :lol

:chase
Click to expand...
:rotfl :clap

Believe me, I'm all for ignoring the PT, and then OWK by extension. Even doing that, though, there are OT inconsistencies that we'd probably disagree about. If Yoda tells Luke that a Jedi only uses the Force for defense and never attack, then he'd be contradicting his lesson if we were to believe that he was simultaneously encouraging Luke to preemptively go kill Vader.

It also doesn't make much sense to me that Yoda would tell Luke about the ability to see both the past and the future, yet not have some inkling/vision that Luke might be the key to turning Vader (rather than just killing him). Because killing Vader does nothing to unseat Palpatine and end the Empire, so waiting 20 years just to train Luke to kill Vader makes almost no sense whatsoever. But Vader turning on his master and destroying Palpatine sure would.

The last scene of ROTJ is also crucial to me. Even as a kid, the ghosts of Yoda and Kenobi being there with Anakin's ghost made it seem to me that they had some expectation of this outcome. That's purely an individual interpretation, I know, but it's been with me for almost 40 years. I'm not letting go now. :lol I just like the idea that Yoda's foresight knew something like this was a real possibility and represented the true "new hope" rather than training Luke just to kill the #2 guy.

But yeah, the PT turned a puddle of ambiguity into a lake, and ignoring it is preferable to me now.
 
ajp4mgs said:
But yeah, the PT turned a puddle of ambiguity into a lake, and ignoring it is preferable to me now.
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;)

The PT is indeed a mess in many respects but I at least have come to accept it as a lovable mess, and one that is hard to truly detach from the rest of Star Wars even if I do clear the palette from time to time by binging the unaltered 4K77/Harmy ESB/4K83.
 

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